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captnemo
Hi - I am sure this has been answered before but had difficulty searching the forum.

I am seeking some advice on next steps with a Letter Before County Court claim from Parking Eye. The letter has been sent to the registered keeper suggesting they have become liable for the charge.

The driver parked at the location in question almost every day for a week during a holiday, stayed all day on each occasion and is confident they paid the parking fees in full at the time. It appears their machine was broken on the day in question leading to the requests to the registered keeper.

The registered keeper ignored the orginal correspondences but is concerned at the references to county court claims.

Should they respond to the effect of the above and if so a form of words would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.
MMM
If you have the PE Letter Before Action or Letter before Court

Then read here to see how they have recently been beaten at this point;

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=83175

However if you are at an earlier stage it may still be possible to appeal to PE in the hope of getting a POPLA code

If so then this thread is more appropriate

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82859

PE love to issue invoices even if you have paid as their ANPR system doesnt work very well and they are to not inclined to check the data captured by their system as if they did so it would reduce the number of invoices they can issue.

If you are at the earlier stage you might even be able to get them to cancel (like Boltonlass did) if not getting a POPLA code will enable you to give them a spanking at POPLA and PE will pay for that priviledge (as long as you get some help from this board about constructing the appeal).

Regards

MMM
instrumentsofjoy
You can see the material about replying to a letter before County Court Action here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...19#post62445019

But certainly POPLA is the way to go first.
captnemo
Very fast reply MMM - thank you very much.

Since the letter is titled '...before County Court Claim', it looks as though the first suggestion is the way to go.

Unfortunately the driver doesnt have a copy of the ticket from the day but is 100% sure the fee was paid. Is this also worth mentioning along with the fact that their machine was likely faulty (though perhaps this could be driver error on typing the number in) as well as the standard RFI text?
MMM
PE will usually cancel if its a reg number entry error as they can (when pushed) check their data and reconcile the ticket. They will give you some guff about it being a gesture of goodwill but basically you have caught them out "trying it on".

If a ticket was bought there is no loss and they would be stupid to go to court and try to claim for a loss they havent suffered hence the suggestions to appeal.

However if you are past this point option 1 is open and you can still spank them at this stage if you follow the advice in the threads referenced in my post and that by IOJ.

Regards

MMM
captnemo
Thanks both; I'll take a good read of all those links. I am astonished that companies can operate in such a manner.

In any event, I am sure the RK will be seeking to clarify the situation and also remind them of their legal obligations / omissions.

Is it possible to get these letters reviewed here?
captnemo
All comments / suggestions welcome - thanks gain:

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of the above letter.

In order to clarify the situation, the driver of the vehicle used the car park on multiple occasions whilst on holiday. If you were to check your records, you will note that on each visit to the car park the fees were paid in full.

On the occasion referred to in your letter the driver kindly suggests that either;

1. the ticket machine was faulty or
2. the driver input entered an incorrect vehicle registration number.

In any event, the parking fee was paid in full and since no loss has occurred, any further action would appear to be a misdirection of resources.

Notwithstanding the above, as suggested in your letter I have taken some time to review the Practice Direction information. My limited understanding is that Practice Direction suggests that Alternative Dispute Resolution would seem the most appropriate way of dealing with this matter, therefore I do not accept your suggestion that referral to POPLA cannot be considered at this time.

Should you consider proceeding with this claim via a County Court, I would request you send me a fully compliant Letter before County Court Claim. In your response I would ask you to address the following specific items:

1. Justification of the claim amount of £100 since amount appears to be punitive given the circumstances outlined above?
2. If you are not the landowner, on whose behalf or on what basis are you making this claim; please supply details, and a copy of any contract that allows you to make such a claim?
3. Since you are unable to use POPLA, could you please provide the details of alternative dispute resolution methods that you are willing to take part in?

I expect to receive a fully compliant Letter Before Claim within 14 days, alternatively you may wish to cancel this charge.

I understand that the Court's has powers to apply sanctions for non-compliance with the Practice Direction under Para 4. If you do not send you a fully compliant Letter Before Claim as requested, I will seek the assistance of the court.

Yours faithfully
MMM
OK Captn

A bit of mix and match going on there

I do like the way your letter starts; I thinks thats great, however

I think its also worth additionally including as much of the the first letter in post #1 here as well; (I would at least make sure that you have points 1-6 (and the paras below it) in your initial letter),

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=83175

As that is nearer the stage you are at, however I have not kept up to date with the lazydaisy thread on MSE, its worth seeing what her latest advice is, as I know it has developed over time.

Have a think and come back

Regards

MMM
captnemo
Thanks mmm

I thought 3 of the six points would have covered it (reasonableness if a judge were to actually have his/her time wasted on this nonsense). Also conscious of copying parrot fashion.

I'll have a think and update.

Ta
captnemo
Take 2: I have re-phrased and tidied up so the text is hopefully more logical as a Letter of Acknowledgement and Request for further information. Any further comments welcome before I send this puppy off:


Dear Sir or Madam

Re: LETTER BEFORE COUNTY COURT CLAIM dated [insert date of LBCCC]

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of the above letter.
In order to clarify the situation, the driver of the vehicle used the car park on multiple occasions whilst on holiday. If you were to check your records, you will note that on each visit to the car park the fees were paid in full.
On the occasion referred to in your letter the driver kindly suggests that either;
1. the ticket machine was faulty or
2. the driver input entered an incorrect vehicle registration number.
In any event, the parking fee was paid in full and since no loss has occurred, any further action would appear to be a misdirection of resources
Notwithstanding the above, I have taken some time to review the Practice Direction (PD) guidance information. My limited understanding leads me to believe that your letter is not fully compliant with the PD.
In order to meet my obligations under PD and to respond in full, please consider this letter a formal request to provide me with the following information:
1. Please can you confirm the exact basis of this claim since your letter is unclear (eg is for an alleged debt, breach of contract or some other reason)?
2. On whose behalf or on what basis are you making this claim; if you are not the landowner please supply details, and a copy of any contract that allows you to make such a claim?
3. Please can you clarify why you are making the claim against me, the facts on which the claim is based and specifically how the requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA are satisfied in respect of keeper liability?
4. Please provide a justification of the claim amount of £100 since amount appears to be punitive given the circumstances outlined above?
5. Please provide a list of the information and documents you will be relying on should you proceed with the claim?
Finally, I do not believe that a Court of Law is the place to resolve this matter and as suggested by the PD an Alternative Dispute Resolution via POPLA would be seem far more appropriate.
Should you consider proceeding with this claim via a County Court, I request you revert back to me on the queries above within 14 days in order I prepare a full response. Alternatively, given the information above, you may choose to cancel this claim.


Yours faithfully



captnemo
So I seem to have made a schoolboy error by publishing letter, not particularly bothered as confident of the truth should this come to court. Also just noticed I do have bank statement detailing purchase from one of the outlets the parking services which I will follow up separately.

Grateful if someone can PM me any comments on the letter form to make sure I have understood the process and my rights.

Thanks
captnemo
Thanks for the various assistances.

I have now replied by email and also recorded delivery via snail mail.

Should I have expected a confirmation from the email and likely next steps?

captnemo
So PE have now responded with a standard letter stating they have checked their records and they show that insufficient time was paid for on the date in question but addressing none of the points have raised above. They have put the Parking Charge on hold for fourteen days in order evidence is provided that a breach the terms and conditions of parking did not occur. Other than witness statements no evidence as such is available.

My understanding would be the letter implies the charge is for an overstay so am minded to seek clarification of the specifics of the overstay (leading to a punitive charge) and re-iteration they have not addressed any of the items which have been requested from them such as adjudication via POPLA.

Grateful for opinions on the logic above please?
Alexis
I'd tell them you have put payment on hold permanently until you receive evidence you didn't pay, or a POPLA code.
Jlc
It is for them to prove their claim and not for you to disprove it.
captnemo
biggrin.gif Thanks both, much appreciated. Provide evidence or popla code it is.
Salmosalaris
and witnesses willing to provide a witness statement that you did tips the balance in your favour ( remember judgement is only on the balance of probability so you need some evidence that you did pay to counter their evidence that their machine has no record of your payment )
The usual cause of this is the incorrect entry of a reg no when a ticket is purchased.

IMO your demand for POPLA will stop this going further .
Have we seen any LBA cases that responded by asking for a POPLA code proceed to a claim yet ?
emsgeorge
Having this afternoon stood in a parking eye controlled car park, behind 3 people buying tickets at the ticket machine:

the first couldn't remember his reg, so punched in 000, and happily took the ticket.

The second put zero in when they should of put in 'o'.

The third punched in the reg, as given to them by their five year old.

No wonder parking eye manage so many tickets. They need a very big sign telling people that getting it even one digit wrong, they will get the letters of doom ........

or perhaps they need to reconcile their no hits database each day.
MMM
Hi Capt'n

See here

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...5657&page=4

Post #79 suggests what to do next (Although the whole thread is very useful and worth a good read through)

I suspect there is more from Lazydaisy on MSE, I dont go there much I am afraid but it seems they are well underway with similar situations on there.

Regards

MMM
Jlc
QUOTE (emsgeorge @ Wed, 18 Sep 2013 - 23:00) *
No wonder parking eye manage so many tickets. They need a very big sign telling people that getting it even one digit wrong, they will get the letters of doom ........

After fleecing every member of the public once their income will go down. Trouble is there's a huge queue of 'willing' customers...
captnemo
Thanks all; this is such a great resource. Actually PE need as much publicity as possible, they are certainly seeking it and I will be making as may people aware of the specific location as I can once this is done. I refuse to go begging to the owner of the car park, they can deal with the bad publicity later. They really have no idea what their impact is on real customers. Anyway, this is a dish best served cold amd I am keeping some of my reserve powder as dry as possible.

First things first and my follow up is below - should cover all bases but as ever grateful if you can spot any errors or omissions:


Thank you for your letter dated 16th September 2013.
You do not seem have read my letter of 12th September 2013 since the response provided appears to be in the form of a template letter and fails to address any of the points raised.
I will respond fully once you provide the information which was requested from you on the 12th September 2013 (points 1 to 5) and additionally:
6. Please provide details of the servicing and maintenance schedule for the payment machines at the location you claim this parking event occurred?
As I have previously asserted, I do not believe that a Court of Law is the place to resolve this matter and as suggested by the PD an Alternative Dispute Resolution via POPLA would be seem far more appropriate.
Should you choose to pursue this matter any further, I will defend myself vigorously. I would seek to recover all costs and expenses incurred in my defence including those of my witnesses in preparation of their statements.
If you do not respond with a POPLA code or with the information requested within fourteen days, I will have no alternative but to seek further advice.
bama
QUOTE
on hold for fourteen days in order evidence is provided that a breach the terms and conditions of parking did not occur.


utter tripe. you can't prover a negative and they ask for exactly that.
suggest:
Letter to R Ledson
marked Addressee Only on envelope and in letter head.

Greetings Rachel,
I have received the following text from you:-
" In order for PE to cancel this parking charge we will need valid evidence that you did not break the terms and conditions"
<Note to reader: adjust this to the EXACT quote of their text>
in relation to a parking event <PEnumber>
As you are the in-house counsel for Parking Eye it falls to you to inform me what it is you consider "valid evidence" to prove this negative.
As you already know the standard letters produced by Parking Eye do not explain what the "valid evidence" would be to prove this negative.

Regards,


And get proof of posting - free at the PO counter
captnemo
ohmy.gif thanks bama - somewhat more guerilla than I am used to but why not since they seem to enjoy similar tactics.

Other opinions welcome, to be honest I'd have thought my response would be enough for them to stop wasting everyone's time here but perhaps not.

How many cases have they actually turned up to in court?
bama
QUOTE
How many cases have they actually turned up to in court?

most of them. I can tell you that it is known for them to do a no show.
The odds ? dunno.
captnemo
Ok thanks bama. I was curious whether they have the gall to waste court time. Of course they do. Presumably of the ones that make court (and the defendant understands the law), they can't be winning many!

Unclear of the purpose the quizzing said legal council on this point, the hope being I would receive an appropriate response to this case, rather than some generalist sweep of their possible income?
bama
QUOTE
Unclear of the purpose the quizzing said legal council on this point

Seriously ?
No one can prove a negative.
You think their legally qualified employee doesn't know this ?
So they knowingly ask you for the impossible !
If they fail to answer it only goes against them.
And as it is impossible to prove a negative they will fail to answer, one way or another.
A point you can use should it ever get to small claims.
(and possibly with the SRA depending on what answer you get - IF you get one)
captnemo
Thanks Bama I see now. This is all very new - whilst I have some contract law experience through work it is relatively minimal.

I have pressed on with the primary response for now but will take your advice to ask said Ledson for a response on this point in particular.

Cheers



captnemo
Hmm so despite offering me 14 days in their letter of 16th Sept to provide evidence to prove a negative, I have now received another LBCCC dated 17th Sept giving me 14 days before they start action in court! Yet again it appears to be a template letter with a bit more text saying the original 2 charge notices provided the full facts of the case, and the charge is levied for breach of contract.

Thoughts welcome but this smacks of harassment to me and their left and right hands are totally disconnected from each other (and reality).......
Lynnzer
QUOTE (captnemo @ Fri, 20 Sep 2013 - 19:00) *
their left and right hands are totally disconnected from each other (and reality).......

They're both stuck up the same 4rsehole though
captnemo
Indeed.

So do to now respond again to the latest LBCCC, presume they are now outlining their case with the additional template information?
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