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cotney
Hi all.

I have just today received a "Notice to Keeper" from LPS Ltd. (I will scan it and upload it tomorrow)

After reading through various threads on Pepipoo, the Parking Cowboys checklist, and also schedule 4 of the POFA (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted) - as far as I can see, the Notice to Keeper must, amongst other things:

- Identify the creditor of which LPS Ltd is acting on behalf of.

- Provide details of the discount for payment within 14 days, The Discount should be at least 40% of the full charge under the BPA Code of Practice (applies to BPA Members only)

Both of which they have failed to do.

The Notice to Keeper they have sent me gives no indication that they are an agent on behalf of the land owner.

And also, it specifically states on the Notice to Keeper that:

"This PCN has not been paid and the opportunity to pay a discounted amount has been lost. Failure to provide driver details or payment of the full amount of £85 within 28 days of this notice will result in your case being passed to our solicitor where the outstanding charge will increase to £110.50 plus further administrative costs."

The "full amount of £85" that they refer to is the full amount on the Notice to Driver, a discounted amount of £50 was available if paid within 14 days.


Is my interpretation correct of POFA Section 4, para 8.2 (g) that states:

"inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available"


I interpret that to mean that they must also offer the same reduced amount of £50 if paid within 14 days of the Notice to Keeper?

Is my interpretation correct? And if so, does that give me grounds for appeal (to be submitted after the 56 day period for issuing a NTK has elapsed)?

Thanks in advance.
kirkbyinfurnesslad
Do a very straight forward appeal to LPS then of to popla you go
cotney
QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Mon, 9 Sep 2013 - 20:33) *
Do a very straight forward appeal to LPS then of to popla you go

Thanks

Soft appeal to LPS followed by a "hard" appeal to POPLA.

But do the two points I have mentioned above give me enough grounds for a successful POPLA appeal?
Jlc
QUOTE (cotney @ Mon, 9 Sep 2013 - 22:04) *
QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Mon, 9 Sep 2013 - 20:33) *
Do a very straight forward appeal to LPS then of to popla you go

Thanks

Soft appeal to LPS followed by a "hard" appeal to POPLA.

But do the two points I have mentioned above give me enough grounds for a successful POPLA appeal?

Not strong at all - the CoP isn't clear on this but it can be read that the discount is only afforded to the PCN - not necessarily the NtK.

The PoFA only states 'any discount offered'. (It doesn't state where and when it should be offered)

Stick to the tried and test to win at POPLA.
cotney
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 9 Sep 2013 - 22:11) *
Not strong at all - the CoP isn't clear on this but it can be read that the discount is only afforded to the PCN - not necessarily the NtK.

The PoFA only states 'any discount offered'. (It doesn't state where and when it should be offered)

Stick to the tried and test to win at POPLA.


Thanks. I did think the PoFA sounds ambiquous.

Just for clarity, I am slightly confused as to my next step - as some advice says immediately send off a short appeal to the PPC, but other advice says to send a letter to the PPC which is not an appeal, but does ask for more information. An example from another thread is below:

-----------

Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of a letter from you dated XX July 2013, which you describe as a Letter before Action, and requesting payment of an amount of £90.

I am not in a position to respond to this letter before action without further information from you.

This letter to you is a formal acknowledgement of receipt of your letter, and a request for the following further information which will allow me to make a formal response.

1. Your letter does not show clearly the basis of your claim. Is the claim for an alleged debt, for breach of contract, or for an alleged trespass, or for some other cause? Please clarify the exact basis of the claim.

2. Please also detail your standing in making the claim. Are you the landowner? If not on whose behalf or on what basis are you making this claim. If you are acting for another entity, please supply details, and a copy of any contract that allows you to make such a claim.

3. Could you clarify why you make the claim against me in particular, and lay out the facts on which you base the claim. In particular please explain how the requirements of schedule 4 of POFA making the keeper liable have been satisfied.

4. Please detail how you arrive at the amount of £90 for your claim; exactly how is this calculated, and what does it represent?

5. Please provide a list of the documents and information that you will be relying upon should a court action become necessary.

6. To avoid unnecessary court action, please provide the details of alternative dispute resolution methods that you are willing to take part in. I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem.


From the information available on the Citizens Advice Bureau website, and from a link they provide to the practice directions for court actions, it is clear that your letter before action does not comply with those directions, in that much of the information requested above should have been provided in your original letter. It should also have referred to details of the practice directions themselves.

Please provide the information requested above within 14 days to allow a formal response to your letter to be made. A formal response will then be made within 14 days of receipt.

You may instead prefer to issue a POPLA code immediately to allow an appeal to them, which would satisfy the requirement for dispute resolution.

You may otherwise prefer to cancel the charge.

Yours sincerely


---------

Is this 'pre-appeal' letter necessary or just a quick appeal and wait for LPS to refuse it?
kirkbyinfurnesslad
Just a quick simple appeal to lps will do ( as I told you above)
cotney
QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Tue, 10 Sep 2013 - 07:31) *
Just a quick simple appeal to lps will do ( as I told you above)

Thanks.

Once I have the POPLA appeal code, are the grounds for the POPLA appeal nearly always the same for everyone (i.e. punitive rather than genuine estimate of loss etc)?
kirkbyinfurnesslad
QUOTE (cotney @ Tue, 10 Sep 2013 - 07:52) *
QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Tue, 10 Sep 2013 - 07:31) *
Just a quick simple appeal to lps will do ( as I told you above)

Thanks.

Once I have the POPLA appeal code, are the grounds for the POPLA appeal nearly always the same for everyone (i.e. punitive rather than genuine estimate of loss etc)?


Basically yes as they work. The are others but if it ain't broken why fix it.
cotney
Soft appeal drafted. Feel free to critique.

-------------------
Dear Sirs

I am writing to you as the registered keeper of vehicle registration #### ### following receipt of a “Notice to Keeper” letter from yourselves.
PCN ref number *************
Issued on ##/##/####

As the registered keeper of the vehicle I wish to appeal this as your parking charge of £85 does not represent a genuine estimate of losses and is designed to be punitive and is therefore unenforceable. Upon reviewing the website for #########, it appears that a ticket for the car park is £1. Therefore I look forward to hearing how you calculate that a penalty of 8500% is a genuine estimate of parking losses and not a punitive charge.

I require you to either cancel the charge forthwith or if you refuse this appeal, then I require you to provide me with a POPLA code so that I can refer the matter to POPLA.

Yours faithfully
---------------------

Any advice appreciated. Thanks
Lynnzer
QUOTE (cotney @ Wed, 11 Sep 2013 - 22:16) *
Soft appeal drafted. Feel free to critique.

-------------------
Dear Sirs

I am writing to you as the registered keeper of vehicle registration #### ### following receipt of a “Notice to Keeper” letter from yourselves.
PCN ref number *************
Issued on ##/##/####

As the registered keeper of the vehicle I wish to appeal this as your parking charge of £85 does not represent a genuine estimate of losses and is designed to be punitive and is therefore unenforceable. Upon reviewing the website for #########, it appears that a ticket for the car park is £1. Therefore I look forward to hearing how you calculate that a penalty of 8500% is a genuine estimate of parking losses and not a punitive charge.

I require you to either cancel the charge forthwith or if you refuse this appeal, then I require you to provide me with a POPLA code so that I can refer the matter to POPLA.

Yours faithfully
---------------------

Any advice appreciated. Thanks

That'll do nicely
cotney
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Wed, 11 Sep 2013 - 23:56) *
That'll do nicely


Cool. Just to clarify as I have managed to confuse myself slightly, the "soft appeal" to the PPC does not have to include all the points you wish to appeal to POPLA with does it? The reason I ask is that I read in one of the POPLA success stories the following extract from the POPLA assessor:

"Membership of the Approved Operator Scheme does require the parking company to have clear authorisation from the landowner, if it is not itself the landowner, as to its role in relation to the parking control and enforcement. This is set out in the BPA Code of Practice. However, as with any issue, if the point is specially raised by an Appellant in an appeal, then the Operator should address it by producing such evidence as it believes refutes a submission that it has no authority.
The Operator has not produced any evidence to demonstrate that it is the land-owner; or, any contract or other evidence that it has the authority of the land-owner to issue parking charge notices at this site. Once the issue is raised by an Appellant, it is for the Operator to demonstrate that it has authority, and a mere statement to the effect that it has a contract will not be sufficient.
Consequently, I must find that the Operator has failed to produce sufficient evidence to refute the Appellant’s submission that it did not have authority to issue a parking charge notice."

The bit in bold above mentions "if specifically raised by an Apellant in the appeal" - does that mean if raised in the appeal submitted to POPLA, not necessarily the initial appeal to the PPC?

Thanks
Jlc
QUOTE (cotney @ Thu, 12 Sep 2013 - 00:17) *
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Wed, 11 Sep 2013 - 23:56) *
That'll do nicely

Cool. Just to clarify as I have managed to confuse myself slightly, the "soft appeal" to the PPC does not have to include all the points you wish to appeal to POPLA with does it?

Some PPC's have tried to state this but there's no restrictions on what you put in the POPLA appeal.

To be honest most PPC's will still reject even if you give them a full monty appeal to then just throw £27 away at POPLA... Madness...
Lynnzer
Does this mob do court?
If not I'd like to try a "little something extra"
cotney
Update on this:

Received a response to my appeal letter today.

Even though I specifically stated in my appeal letter that I was responding as the registered keeper after receiving the "Notice to Keeper", and even included the line "At this point I am unable to identify the driver" - So I couldn't have made it any clearer.

However, they have today responded saying:

...

"As the Excess Charge Notice was issued on the 26th July 2013 and a formal demand has been sent to yourself, you have lost the right to appeal to POPLA.

Therefore we regret that your appeal has been unsuccessful and the Excess Charge of £85 remains due and payable."


...

So without a POPLA code, I can't appeal to POPLA yet.

I assume my next move is to respond along the lines of:

"As the registered keeper of the vehicle, I received your "Notice to Keeper" letter dated ##/##/####. I then appealed to yourselves within the 28 day time limit allowed under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. If you have refused my appeal to yourselves then you must issue me a POPLA code so that I can refer the matter to POPLA. Your statement that I have lost the right to appeal to POPLA is incorrect and misleading.

I demand that you provide me with a POPLA code as required under the POFA 2012 so that I can refer the matter to POPLA.

If you fail to to provide me with a POPLA code, then you have failed your obligations under the POFA 2012 and therefore I will consider any further demands for money as harrassment."



Any advice appreciated.
Salmosalaris
You could add issue a POPLA code or f@&k off , well words to that effect
SchoolRunMum
Tell them you have officially complained to the DVLA and BPA that they have denied your right to appeal as registered keeper. And do so:

david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

steve.c.@britishparking.co.uk


smile.gif

cotney
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 1 Oct 2013 - 01:38) *
Tell them you have officially complained to the DVLA and BPA that they have denied your right to appeal as registered keeper. And do so:

david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

steve.c.@britishparking.co.uk


smile.gif

Included in letter and done. smile.gif

Out of interest, I notice on the POPLA website, it says you have 28 days to submit your POPLA appeal after receiving your rejection letter; Is this 28 days from the date that the PPC issue you with a POPLA code, or is it 28 days from the initial appeal rejection?

Doesn't seem right that they could faff about for 28 days and ensure you miss the POPLA deadline?
SchoolRunMum
Yep they could indeed:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...-code-mean.html

HTH
cotney
So update, they have written back to me AGAIN refusing to issue a POPLA code.

They state:

"We advise that in order to make an appeal to POPLA you need to send your appeal to us within 28 days of the Excess Charge Notice being issued not 28 days of the formal demand being sent.

As the Excess Charge Notice was issued on ## and the first correspondence we received from yourself was dated ## you lost the right to make an appeal to POPLA."

--------

I assume by "formal demand" they mean the Notice to Keeper.

Here is my planned final response:

"In response to your letter dated ##

The first I heard of this penalty was from your “Notice to Keeper” letter dated ##. Therefore my appeal letter dated ## was within the 28 day time limit allowed under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

No person that could have been driving the car at the time you issued the penalty mentioned any penalty to me, therefore the first I was aware of this penalty was upon receipt of your “Notice to Keeper”.

Clearly I can not appeal to you within 28 days of the penalty being issued if you have to wait 28 days before you contact the DVLA to retrieve my details as the registered keeper.

I have contacted the British Parking Association (BPA) and the POPLA appeals service and they have confirmed that the date the penalty was issued is of no relevance to me as the registered keeper.

As a member of the Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) administered by the British Parking Association (BPA), if you have refused my appeal that you received within the 28 day time limit then you must issue me a POPLA code so that I can refer the matter to POPLA.

You now have two options:
1) Issue me with a POPLA code as you are required to do after refusing my registered keeper appeal
or
2) Cancel the penalty.

If you write to me again without issuing a POPLA code, you are failing your obligations under the AOS, a fact confirmed to me by both the BPA and POPLA. Therefore any future correspondence I receive from you without you having issued a POPLA code will be ignored.

Yours faithfully

----------

a) Does that read OK?

b) What should I do if they still refuse to issue a POPLA code? I worry simply ignoring any future correspondence will see them take me to court.
Gan
If you write to me again without issuing a POPLA code, you are failing your obligations under the AOS, a fact confirmed to me by both the BPA and POPLA. Therefore any future correspondence I receive from you without you having issued a POPLA code will be ignored.

Any other response will be immediately reported to DVLA as a deliberate failure to comply with the BPA Code of Practice, as the BPA and POPLA have already confirmed

If they were stupid enough to take it to court, you would ask the judge to order them to provide the POPLA code because the appeals procedure hasn't been completed
cotney
In the draft letter I mention that the BPA have confirmed I am due a POPLA code.

To this end, I emailed the BPA (at the email address 'aos@britishparking.co.uk') outlining the circumstances and what I had been told, and they have emailed me back requesting I forward them copies of all correspondence so they can look in to it.

Is this a good idea? Are there any negative consequences that could arise?
SchoolRunMum
Nope, it's fine to get the BPA on the case because they will probably put pressure on the PPC to either cancel the ticket or send you a POPLA code.
cotney
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Mon, 14 Oct 2013 - 00:51) *
Nope, it's fine to get the BPA on the case because they will probably put pressure on the PPC to either cancel the ticket or send you a POPLA code.

I'll scan and send it across to them tomorrow.

Thanks
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