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adamskd
Hi all,

Yesterday I received a letter informing me my car was stationary in a box junction. I went on the PC immediately and requested to see a recording/the images. It was no surprise I had got this notice as there are two boxes close together and its often hard to judge whether to go or not especially with people turning left in / in front of you whilst heading towards Kingsbury.

The notice said if paid within 14 days the cost would be £35.

This morning I awoke to a letter regarding the same incident, addressing me as a 'customer' (which I thought was amusing) - informing me of a mistake they had made. The reduced cost of £35 was an error and would cost me £65!

Obviously I'm not overly happy about this and was after some advice!

Thanks!

Kyle

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Incandescent
They are acting illegally. The first PCN contains a fatal error, and it is illegal to reissue it with alterations. You need to write to them, (appeal) on the basis of the 1st PCN being a nullity and they have acted illegally in reissuing it. Also state you will take the matter to adjudication if they do not cancel the PCNs. I shall be interested to see what prestidigitation they use to justify their actions.

BTW, there is another thread on this subject on-going somewhere. Clearly somebody has boobed and they are trying to recover their money illegally.
adamskd
Hi there thanks for this info.

I have also noticed a lot of peoples PCN state ' ENTERING AND STOPPING IN A BOX JUNCTION WHEN PROHIBITED ' in the box whereas mine has nothing other than 'Contravention Code 31' - which other people also have (please see pics) - is this also an error, that is potentially worth mentioning??

Have you seen the other post regarding incorrect figures recently as I cant find it!!?

Thanks

Kyle
skinz43
I believe this is the other post you are referring to

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82393

I also received a pcn that only states contravention code 31 with no additional information such as "ENTERING AND STOPPING IN A BOX JUNCTION WHEN PROHIBITED" as have you

the date of alleged contravention is 05/07/2013 but the date of the notice is the 15/08/2013.

The pcn also states £35

but the next day I received another notice now dated 16/08/2013 with the reduced amount of £65.

what or how do I write this appeal, would something like this be ok

I appeal this contravention as the first pcn has a fatal error rendering this pcn null and void and also illegal due to the incorrect reduced amount of £35 if paid within 14 days, furthermore it is illegal to reissue this pcn. There is also a limit of 28 days to issue cctv related notices. I would like to take this notice to adjudication if these pcn's are not cancelled

Thanks in advance

Skinz

Forgot to mention that the covering letter sent with the second PCN states that

Our records show that you were recently served with a copy of this notice that contained an incorrect value in the reduced amount field. Your revised notice contains the correct value.



adamskd
Thanks, I have had a look at that post.

Surely it should state what the offence is not just the code...

not sure about the 28 days - if its calendar days mine was issued 31 days after, if its working days I'm buggered on that front!! Hopefully someone can advise!

Yeah, I think that is what I got - have a look at the 'Correction 4' upload of mine. It should be a copy of the letter starting 'Dear Customer' ?

As I say, hopefully someone can advise - sounds like we have a similar letter to write!!

Regards

Kyle



adamskd
Here are some low resolution photos that I took on my way to work this morning.

Does any one know if this box is marked out correctly by looking at these images??

Kyle

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m9441905
QUOTE (adamskd @ Sat, 17 Aug 2013 - 12:52) *
Hi all,

Yesterday I received a letter informing me my car was stationary in a box junction. I went on the PC immediately and requested to see a recording/the images.

The notice said if paid within 14 days the cost would be £35.


Hi adamskd,

Sorry to hijack but I've just been pinged for exactly the same thing (albeit at a different junction) by our dear friends at Brent! My PCN is identical to your original but I haven't received an updated 'dear customer' letter to date. The facts are:

1. PCN issued 31 days after the infringement
2. 243 Wembley Hill Rd on the CCTV still image but the PCN simply states Wembley Hill Rd CCTV with the date and time.
3. Just states Convention code 31 but not the actual details of the offence.
4. Just the very end of the car is in the yellow box so I've requested the video via view my PCN to check if I can use the less than 10 secs in the box defence (ex minima?)
5. Offered discount payment of 35 quid but phoning or internet requests 65 quid.
6. Still in discount period (just, hence apology for hijack...)

My thinking is that I should appeal with the grounds being that 1. they have not stated the actual offence and 2. they've applied an incorrect discount. Is there anything else that I've missed? If I'm correct, do I have to pick one of the 4 statutory reasons and if so, presumably only 4 about the incorrect charge is applicable?

Cheers,

Mags


Incandescent
Rule of this forum is one OP per thread. Please start your own thread if you want to get advice.
adamskd
QUOTE (m9441905 @ Mon, 19 Aug 2013 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (adamskd @ Sat, 17 Aug 2013 - 12:52) *
Hi all,

Yesterday I received a letter informing me my car was stationary in a box junction. I went on the PC immediately and requested to see a recording/the images.

The notice said if paid within 14 days the cost would be £35.


Hi adamskd,

Sorry to hijack but I've just been pinged for exactly the same thing (albeit at a different junction) by our dear friends at Brent! My PCN is identical to your original but I haven't received an updated 'dear customer' letter to date. The facts are:

1. PCN issued 31 days after the infringement
2. 243 Wembley Hill Rd on the CCTV still image but the PCN simply states Wembley Hill Rd CCTV with the date and time.
3. Just states Convention code 31 but not the actual details of the offence.
4. Just the very end of the car is in the yellow box so I've requested the video via view my PCN to check if I can use the less than 10 secs in the box defence (ex minima?)
5. Offered discount payment of 35 quid but phoning or internet requests 65 quid.
6. Still in discount period (just, hence apology for hijack...)

My thinking is that I should appeal with the grounds being that 1. they have not stated the actual offence and 2. they've applied an incorrect discount. Is there anything else that I've missed? If I'm correct, do I have to pick one of the 4 statutory reasons and if so, presumably only 4 about the incorrect charge is applicable?

Cheers,

Mags


Hi Mags,

Does appear we are in the same boat and on the verge of writing a very similar letter - I am still yet to see the video/photo of my vehicle.

I agree with the grounds of appeal though Im not sure on the regulations or processes, hopefully someone can advise!

Regards,

Kyle
skinz43
I have started a new thread, maybe the letter I have drafted will help in drafting your own one

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82502

adamskd
Hi guys,

Since I last posted I have been writing a letter to Brent Council with reasons I don't believe the PCN is valid.

I got the first letter on the 16th August and requested to see the video/photos on the same day... however, I am still waiting and keep getting the message 'There was an error processing the ticket' when I try to view it on their website.

I have resubmitted and have been waiting longer than the 24 hours they aim to produce the footage.

What do I do about the letter I have written - do I send it or wait for the footage?

Kyle

madandy
If they ask you to pay a reduced fee of £35 on the original PCN then it is binding as it is effectively an invoice or contract.

If they subsequently re-issue or state that the sum was wrong they are by default stating that their PCN was invalid since the "PCN" is effectively a claim for a "PC" and if the "PC" is invalid then the "N" is..........

Now...... There is a very serious issue here. What about the presumably vast majority who paid up. They would have paid £65 after receiving the second PCN or paid the £35. Would they be touted for more?

To pursue and accept payments arising out of an invalid PCN wilfully is surely a criminal offence. There must be a great many entitled to a refund.

Contact the Willesden And Brent Chronicle or Sarah Teather MP. She's Liberal Democrat and having lost the council to Labour next time round she may be only to willing to stick her oar and the knife in as well as being one of that very small minority of MP's to be totally untainted by the expenses scandal.

In the meantime guys, try getting some Notices Of Rejection in on this to really show criminality.

adamskd
Just an update for anyone that is in a similar situation or is just generally interested..

Sunday 1st September I wrote a letter, which basically included all the points people had raised above etc - if anyone would like to see the letter just ask!

TODAY.... at 13:11 I received an email informing me that the video was finally ready to view, I will try and link it below. I had been waiting for this footage since 16th August.

Though I have already appealed I await their reply.

In the meantime what does anyone else think about the video... I personally feel I entered the box while the car in front was still moving, also the car I was behind was a lot bigger with a higher driving position - I couldn't see cars in front of them

http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=...a47bf03515f8b79

Regards

Kyle

adamskd
Hi all,

Just need some advice, as I previously mentioned the video was put up after I had sent an appeal by email.

I received an automated reply saying they acknowledged my email to them... this was on the 1st September

A few moments ago I got the attached letter... could anyone tell me if this is right or not and what I should do now!!

Thanks in advance

Kyle

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adamskd
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m9441905
Hey Adam,

Snap - I got an identical letter late last week while I was hoping that the barrage of illegality and bad practice that we'd pointed out would have had us confirmed as off the hook now. I can prove that I appealed via email (and got an acknowledgement) within the discount time period so looks like they're now trying to ignore both of us! :-) Still unable to see the footage, get an error message saying the PCN is incorrect.

Learned friends, we await your guidance - is this a case of a second, updated PCN being invalid due to the fact that the initial one was too?

Cheers,

Mags
luross
If you look at the charge certificate it has the wrong date in the first line. The date they say they sent the PCN is the date of the contravention. I have received the same letter with the same error. In my case this is about the fifth procedural/administrative error Brent have committed during this case.

adamskd
@luross - thanks for point this out, I hadn't noticed! - the number I used for Brent Parking Services was 020 8937 4972

Just an update for another that is interested or can relate to a similar situation.

I rang Brent yesterday at 10:00 from work - spoke to an unhelpful person who basically said I was issued the Charge Certificate because I didn't appeal, I corrected him - mentioned the automated e-mail reply I received straight after I send my appeal (1st Sept).
I asked him to confirm that I could appeal by e-mail, and that I had 28 days from the first PCN to appeal - both he confirmed. Therefore I had followed their procedure. I requested speaking to a manager or supervisor, apparently this wasn't possible and I had to write a letter to Brent explaining what had happened...

as I said I was at work, and I carried on thinking about this and what I had been told. I therefore decided to call back Brent when I got home to ask someone else for some advice.. lucky I did...

after a fairly long debate with a different and slightly more helpful person, they (Brent Parking Services) admitted;

they have had issues with their computer systems, causing backlogs. Also, they have changed systems which is probably why they didn't acknowledge my appeal, even though they sent me the previously mentioned automated reply.
they also said the threatening Charge Certificate should not have been sent out.

I was advised to put a letter together, explaining what has happened and to enclose my appeal as well as the proof of automated reply - I have also included the CCTV email I got saying the footage was availiable... albeit 26 days after I got the PCN, they claim it usually takes 24 hours for the footage... so said like that 26 days isn't too bad?!?!

So yeah, that's where we are now. I have written a letter that I am sending by email to a different email address they gave me, as well as the original - im also sending this letter recorded so they cant say they didn't get it this time!!

Hope this makes sense, the whole thing is getting more and more messy and out of hand, I have mentioned to them I have considered going to local papers to let them know how poorly Brent's service is.

Anyone need any help let me know and I will do my best to help out

Kyle huh.gif
SchoolRunMum
Thanks for the update. Sounds like such a cock-up the second person should have just cancelled it for you!
Incandescent
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 25 Sep 2013 - 19:59) *
Thanks for the update. Sounds like such a cock-up the second person should have just cancelled it for you!

So why didn't they ? Answer - because the money is too good to miss. Cash and who gets to keep it is the deadly poison intrinsic to council parking and other minor traffic offences enforcement. That is why councils have such a bad name and are regarded as money-grubbing, mendacious, robbers.
adamskd
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 25 Sep 2013 - 20:44) *
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 25 Sep 2013 - 19:59) *
Thanks for the update. Sounds like such a cock-up the second person should have just cancelled it for you!

So why didn't they ? Answer - because the money is too good to miss. Cash and who gets to keep it is the deadly poison intrinsic to council parking and other minor traffic offences enforcement. That is why councils have such a bad name and are regarded as money-grubbing, mendacious, robbers.


Well said. Just waiting for the reply to my letter

Kyle
adamskd
We have news...

My representations have been accepted and the PCN has been cancelled, no mention of anything else.

Case closed.

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I will add this to the 'Completed Case Summaries' with the outline of what happened along the way...

I'd like to thank everyone that has helped me along this journey.

If anyone else has a case similar to mine and wants advice or to see/use/edit the letters I used to give you an idea just drop me a PM or e-mail - I will continue to monitor Pepipoo and help everyone I can.

Kyle
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m9441905
QUOTE (adamskd @ Wed, 9 Oct 2013 - 16:13) *
We have news...

My representations have been accepted and the PCN has been cancelled, no mention of anything else.

Case closed.

Click to view attachment

I will add this to the 'Completed Case Summaries' with the outline of what happened along the way...

I'd like to thank everyone that has helped me along this journey.

If anyone else has a case similar to mine and wants advice or to see/use/edit the letters I used to give you an idea just drop me a PM or e-mail - I will continue to monitor Pepipoo and help everyone I can.

Kyle
cool.gif
I also have good news, my appeal was also successful with Brent and we got the confirmation 2 days ago! If you're in the same situation, make sure that you post your appeal recorded delivery as well as email it as they simply ignored it until I resent, despite acknowledging the email. I'm also happy to take PMs and share my experience and I will also drop in when I can.

Huge Kudos to Kyle - it was his letter which got both our PCNs chucked out biggrin.gif

Mags
SchoolRunMum
Well done!
Incandescent
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 12 Oct 2013 - 18:10) *
Well done!

Me too in spades !!


They really are a load of shysters, aren't they !

Extract from Oxford Dictionary of English

QUOTE
Definition of shyster in English

Pronunciation: /ˈʃʌɪstə/
noun
informal
a person, especially a lawyer, who uses unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business:
adamskd
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 12 Oct 2013 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 12 Oct 2013 - 18:10) *
Well done!

Me too in spades !!


They really are a load of shysters, aren't they !

Extract from Oxford Dictionary of English

QUOTE
Definition of shyster in English

Pronunciation: /ˈʃʌɪstə/
noun
informal
a person, especially a lawyer, who uses unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business:



of course, thanks! I wouldn't have been able to do it alone!!

Kyle
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