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nomorebillz
Hi all,

I'm hoping to get a bit of advice on what to do with regards to a parking charge notice I received recently.

I was issued the charge notice by P4Parking when I was parked on double yellow lines on a road that I assumed was a public road (buses pass through this road). Upon speaking to the council, I now understand the road's structure is handled by the council, but managed by "housing". Not entirely sure what that means, but I assume this stretch of road is managed by Berkeley Homes, who are currently redeveloping the area. The council also said they are unaware of any parking enforcement on this road but I guess this is because it is managed by a third party.

There was a sign nearby stating the parking rules (image below taken from another thread, but near enough identical to the sign on the road). The reasoning given in the parking charge notice is "Parked on double yellow lines". Can a PPC issue parking charges for vehicles parked on double yellow lines?

Not sure if this will help, but I noticed the sign says a reduced sum of £65 is payable if paid within 14 days, whereas the parking charge notice says a discounted payment of £60 is payable if paid within the same time limit.

Can someone please advise me on what to do next? Is it worth appealing, then going through POPLA? Or should I simply ignore?

Thanks all

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
The Rookie
Appeal and stuff them at POPLA.

Presumably the signage is inadequate to be considered that you entered a contract when you parked, I'd make that my appeal to pratts for parking, get the POPLA code and then all barrels to POPLA.
nomorebillz
Thanks for the quick reply. Can you please elaborate on why the signage is considered inadequate as to not form a valid contract?
ManxRed
Parking in contravention of any of the Estate Parking Regulations - have you seen these?

Parked in a Zip Car Bay - what is that?

Parked without displaying a valid tax disc - do they have the authority to take action over this? No.

A surcharge of £1.95 will be taken for all debit and credit card payments. - Illegal I think.

The ticket says the discounted payment is £60 and the sign says £65.

A Notice to Owner Charge Certificate will be sent if the ticket is unpaid.

No mention of POPLA, so they are pursuing the driver only.


I would be thinking about a complaint to the DVLA. However you ought to wait for this Notice to Owner Charge Certificate, I reckon it's going to have some pearlers in there.

There's no way that sign can form a contract.
nomorebillz
Great, thanks ManxRed and Rookie biggrin.gif

I'll appeal with the points you listed, which will no doubt get rejected, then I'll appeal to POPLA!

With regards to your question about parking in contravention of any of the Estate Parking Regulations, I noticed a bit further down the road a small sign saying 'Strictly no parking'. Not sure if that constitutes as a valid estate parking regulation?
ManxRed
No, wait for the Notice to Owner Charge Certificate. It'll be full of ammunition.
nomorebillz
Great will do. Thanks ManxRed. I'll keep you guys posted!
ManxRed
If and when you do appeal, be sure to include the fact that they state clearly on the sign that they only manage the land, they don't own it, so you will need to see the contract they hold with the landowner so you can verify that it contains suitable clauses to allow them to offer parking and form contracts with, and pursue, drivers.

Neither the sign nor the ticket states clearly who the creditor is, which means it is non-compliant with the BPA Ltd Code of Practice.

Also, when you do appeal, do not specifically mention who was driving, the appeal should be worded "the driver parked the vehicle...", "the driver received a ticket..." and so on. They can only pursue the driver, and you are under no legal obligation to tell them who that is.
nomorebillz
When I get the Notice to Owner Charge Certificate, is that the time I should appeal?

From what I've read on other threads, some PPCs can pursue the registered keeper instead of the driver. Is this applicable in my case?
ManxRed
QUOTE (nomorebillz @ Fri, 19 Jul 2013 - 12:53) *
When I get the Notice to Owner Charge Certificate, is that the time I should appeal?

From what I've read on other threads, some PPCs can pursue the registered keeper instead of the driver. Is this applicable in my case?


They have to follow strict rules in order to be able to do that, and in this case, they've failed on many many levels.

In fact, did this happen in Scotland or Northern Ireland, because they haven't even made an attempt at following the criteria that they have to follow.
nomorebillz
Nope, it happened far far away from Scotland and NI! They issued the ticket in South East London.
ManxRed
Hopeless! (them, not you!).

They can't pursue the registered keeper with that paperwork or signage.

Is there anything on the back of the ticket??
dandyman
QUOTE (nomorebillz @ Fri, 19 Jul 2013 - 12:53) *
When I get the Notice to Owner Charge Certificate, is that the time I should appeal?


Correct. Do nothing until that arrives, and then come back here. There should be some satisfaction to be had from this one!
nomorebillz
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Fri, 19 Jul 2013 - 13:07) *
Hopeless! (them, not you!).

They can't pursue the registered keeper with that paperwork or signage.

Is there anything on the back of the ticket??


Nope the back is blank.



QUOTE (dandyman @ Fri, 19 Jul 2013 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (nomorebillz @ Fri, 19 Jul 2013 - 12:53) *
When I get the Notice to Owner Charge Certificate, is that the time I should appeal?


Correct. Do nothing until that arrives, and then come back here. There should be some satisfaction to be had from this one!


Will keep everyone posted! tongue.gif
prjohnsonnn
any news on what happened here?
thanks

any news on what happened here please?
nomorebillz
It looks like P4Parking has passed my case over to a company called TNC Parking Services as I'm now getting the odd letter sent to me every so often demanding payment for the penalty charge. I've just ignored these letters. I also did not receive a notice to owner certificate.
trubster
Does it really say "Penalty" Charge???

Christmas already???
nomorebillz
QUOTE (trubster @ Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 00:15) *
Does it really say "Penalty" Charge???

Christmas already???


Sorry, I just re-read the letter. It says "Parking Charge", not penalty charge.
cabbyman
Keep all those letters. It probably won't but it could come back and bite you at a later date.
matt285
QUOTE (nomorebillz @ Thu, 26 Dec 2013 - 22:02) *
It looks like P4Parking has passed my case over to a company called TNC Parking Services as I'm now getting the odd letter sent to me every so often demanding payment for the penalty charge. I've just ignored these letters. I also did not receive a notice to owner certificate.


So you never got a Notice to Keeper but instead the Parking Company has forwarded your "debt" to a debt collection agent?

This means they can't do anything anymore - I would suggest you continue to ignore.
nomorebillz
Thanks for the advice. I will continue to ignore. It's reassuring to hear they can't do anything if they haven't sent a notice to keeper.
SchoolRunMum
They did. It was the first TNC letter that you chose to ignore (not sure what you thought you were waiting for but it arrived from TNC and you didn't post about it?). The NTK is the first letter that arrives and can be from a debt collector. You've missed your POPLA appeal chance but never mind, P4Parking rarely try small claims and I think bail out when they see a decent defence. Clearly they cannot hold the keeper liable in your case so don't tell them who the driver was at any stage. Please don't ignore actual court papers if they arrive in 2014.
nomorebillz
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 29 Dec 2013 - 02:17) *
They did. It was the first TNC letter that you chose to ignore (not sure what you thought you were waiting for but it arrived from TNC and you didn't post about it?). The NTK is the first letter that arrives and can be from a debt collector. You've missed your POPLA appeal chance but never mind, P4Parking rarely try small claims and I think bail out when they see a decent defence. Clearly they cannot hold the keeper liable in your case so don't tell them who the driver was at any stage. Please don't ignore actual court papers if they arrive in 2014.


I'm quite new to this so I assumed a notice to keeper would have arrived from the PPC and not a debt collector, and be titled "Notice to keeper". There was also nothing on the letter to suggest I could appeal the parking charge via POPLA or directly with P4Parking.
matt285
QUOTE (nomorebillz @ Sun, 29 Dec 2013 - 11:28) *
I'm quite new to this so I assumed a notice to keeper would have arrived from the PPC and not a debt collector, and be titled "Notice to keeper". There was also nothing on the letter to suggest I could appeal the parking charge via POPLA or directly with P4Parking.


I think in this case I have to disagree with SRM -

I think you're absolutely right - if you received only a "demand letter" or some similar waste from a debt collector then this is not a proper Notice to Keeper. The Notice to Keeper, to be effective, must contain the following content:

para. 8 Sch. 4 Protection of Freedoms Act 2012:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted


(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;

©state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph 7(2)(b), © and (f);

(d)if the unpaid parking charges specified in that notice to driver as required by paragraph 7(2)© have been paid in part, specify the amount that remains unpaid, as at a time which is—

(i)specified in the notice to keeper, and

(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

(f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (if it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).

(4)The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.

(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.

(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and

(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.


I would be extremely surprised if any debt collector letter contains all this information. Hence they have failed to provide a correct Notice to Keeper. Hence they cannot pursue you as the Registered Keeper.

Simples wink.gif
SchoolRunMum
I agree with you - I never said that was a 'compliant' NTK. But I am saying it was the only NTK! That first TNC letter was definitely 'meant' to be the first letter to Keeper, and flawed though it was, it should have been treated as such and debunked at the time, challenged not ignored. No-one said to ignore letters. Lots of small-fry PPCs use TNC to send the first (late, badly worded) letter to the keeper, we've seen this loads of times, there is no compliant NTK from little firms like P4Parking. It doesn't look as though P4Parking ever claimed this was a POFA 2012 ticket. Was POFA 2012 or 'keeper liability' stated on the back of that first windscreen ticket? You only showed us the front.

It is true that the keeper cannot be held liable but it's also true that P4Parking have tried a couple of small claims (rare). They'd be pretty easy to defend against for a registered keeper who wasn't the driver, but still stressful for the OP and totally unnecessary and a waste of your time and potentially a worry in 2014 every time a letter arrives now. Should have challenged the first letter as the advice said; not ignored it. Should have posted in good time like this poster, similar issue being addressed about P4Parking & TNC:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=86397

Now - unless you can get the BPA to put pressure on them to cancel it or allow the appeal the keeper has been deprived of - you either need to face up to a possible court defence in 2014, ignoring the letters from TNC until something more definite arrives (court papers?) or get off the back foot and start writing a response as keeper stating that you never got a Notice to Keeper at all so they've failed to comply with the BPA code of practice (the only thing you as keeper, can get them on seeing as they don't bother with POFA2012).

And email a complaint to the BPA as well - pointing out any failures to comply with the BPA CoP (Google it and read it, the June 2013 version). Signage could be an issue to add to the lack of NTK/NTO. Here's a case where someone has done exactly that:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...0&start=100

And after a lot of prodding, Steve Clark at the BPA forced P4Parking to allow the registered keeper to appeal, since they'd never been given the chance.
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