Hi,

I hope some of you knowledgeable people on this forum can please assist urgently.

At this stage, I have already received the NTO and today I believe is the last day to send any representations to the Council as 28 days will have passed by midnight tonight. However, I think I read on this forum a while ago that this deadline actually refers to 28 days from the "date of the service of the notice" which is 2-3 days later from the "date of the notice". Can anyone confirm this?

The alleged contravention is Code 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

The images taken by the CEO are unclear and I do not believe my vehicle was blocking the dropped kerb in any way. In fact, I remember getting out of the vehicle to check that I was clear when the kerb started to lower.

Attached below are the relevant images of the PCN, NTO and CEO snapped pictures.

Front side of PCN:



Rear side of PCN:



NTO Front Side:



NTO Rear Side:



NTO - Page 3:



NTO - Page 4:




PCN Image 1:



PCN Image 2:



PCN Image 3:



PCN Image 4:




As you can see, the images taken by the CEO are very unclear and I am certain that I was not blocking any dropped kerb, that includes vehicle overhang, i.e. the whole vehicle was parked just before the kerb started to lower.

It should be noted that there is a single yellow line across the dropped kerb - should not this not be a double yellow line to indicate to motorists with total certainty that no parking on that area is allowed? I was parked on the single yellow line at 9.30pm when the PCN was served, and this line carries on across the dropped kerb and around the bend.

I'm not sure if this road is within a CPZ, but I have read that dropped kerbs required for pedestrian access should always have double yellow lines across where they are located in a controlled parking zone. Is this correct?

Any input or advice on my appeal would be much appreciated. I am currently going through the legislation covering code 27.

If any more info is need here, please let me know.

Thanks.

Post deleted as confusing - all details are in my first post above.

Cheers.

If this is all they have, what exactly does the council have which establishes the contravention?

Peter, thanks for your prompt reply.

Apologies but the pictures you have quoted in your post above are ones I took a few weeks later just to show the dropped curb itself and surrounding area. They are NOT pictures of my actual parking when the PCN was served - these pictures are in my first post.

I will edit/delete this post so things are clear.

Thanks

Get your appeal in. All you have to say is that it is impossible from the photos to see anything, least of all a dropped kerb and so the contravention did not occur.

There was a Barnet case like this at PATAS on Saturday, ref 2130221410 and here are the adjudicator's notes:

"This is a personal appeal attended by the Appellant's representative, Mr F Martins. The Enforcement Authority did not appear and was not represented. The issue of the Penalty Charge Notice is not in dispute.

I carefully considered with Mr Martins the Enforcement Authority's evidence, including their Civil Enforcement Officer's contemporaneous notes and photographs, location details and Enforcement Authority processing notes. He disputes that he had parked at a dropped footway and questioned the quality of the Enforcement Authority's photographic evidence.

In viewing this very carefully with the Appellant, I was unable to discern the existence of any lowered kerb in the vicinity of where the Appellant's car had been parked. The photographs were extremely dark and lacking in detail, and I was unable to place any reliance on them. I have noted from the processing notes filed with the Enforcement Authority's evidence that it was stated that the "dropped kerb is just visible within the photos....." However, this was not supported by the photographic evidence available to me, and I prefer to accept the Appellant's explanation.

I am not satisfied that the Appellant's car had been parked in contravention and must allow the appeal."

Don't delay. Just send in a simple appeal that the photographs don't make out the contravention. Once you have missed the 14 day discount period then the decision to go to PATAS is an easy one as the amount at stake does not get any higher until 28 days after the PATAS decision in which time you either celebrate or pay. I think you will be celebrating.

Mr Mustard, thanks very much for your detailed response, much appreciated.

Great find on the PATAS case, looks very similar to mine. Is this case worth quoting directly in my appeal letter?

Okay, I will email the formal appeal in this evening on the basis that the contravention did not occur and that the pictures taken are unclear and it is impossible to make out much detail.

Are you happy with the actual documentation (PCN, NTO, etc.)?

Thanks again.

May I suggest you look again at your and the council's photos.

Unless someone has moved the street sign, then IMO it is probable that you were not in contravention.

Look at where the prohibited area starts relative to the sign i.e. at least 1 metre to the right, and look at the CEO's photo which shows the rear of your car.

I have heard of parallax ( Parallax is a displacement or difference in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight, and is measured by the angle or semi-angle of inclination between those two lines), but it would require the total suspension of disbelief in order to think that this contravention occurred.

For accuracy, day 28 is 16th (NTO dated 17th gives a date of service of 19th which is day 1, day 28 is therefore 16th).

The NtO does not contain Regulation 3(3)(e)

2130236316

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

The NtO is further defective as it does not comply with Regulation 3(3)(e) of the The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

(e)in general terms, the form and manner in which an appeal may be made.


I seek further support from Case No: 213008458A

Register Kept Under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regulations 1993, as amended or Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable
Case Reference: 213008458A
Appellant: Mr Matthew Marvin
Authority: Barnet
VRM: RA04HJN
PCN: AG31013866
Contravention Date: 16 Dec 2012
Contravention Time: 10:44
Contravention Location: Cricklewood Lane
Penalty Amount: £110.00
Contravention: Parked in a residents or shared use pay without displaying a permit, voucher or Pay & display ticket
Decision Date: 21 Mar 2013
Adjudicator: Edward Houghton
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons: The Appellant takes four procedural points on the Council's documentation. As it seems to me he is correct on his first point it is unnecessary to deal with the other three, which I do not accept, in the detail they might otherwise deserve .

In brief ,as to point 2 it sems to me that the words "except where we decide to disregard your representations .." are , in context sufficient to give the information required and substantially s comply with Regulation 3(3)(d)(ii). As to point 3, there sems to me no possible objection to the enforcement authority stating that it may go beyond what it is strictly required to do and to cancel the PCN as well as the NTO ( something that I myself will do in the present case) - provided of course the authority does in addition cancel the NTO and say so. The authority has a discretion to cancel a PCN at any time. As to point 4, the rejection notice states that a charge certificate will be issued after 28 days and in context this clearly refers to the 28 days mentioned above to run from the date of service. The reference to the Appeal form is sufficient to amount in general terms to information as to the form and manner of an Appeal.

This leaves point 1 where it sems to me the Appellant is on firmer ground The NTO does not describe in general terms or at all the form and manner in which an appeal may be made. The NTO states instead "We will tell you how to do this when we write to you" It sems to me this is insufficient. The Regulation requires not that the motorist be informed at some future time, but that he be informed now, on the NTO. The Council has not troubled to make any submissions on this or any of the other three points, save to assert that its documentation meets all the statutory requirements. Although this is a technical point without any great merit I am satisfied the Appellant is correct and that the NTO does not comply with the Regulations. Its issue amounts to a procedural impropriety and the Appeal is therefore allowed.

hcandersen - thanks for that.

Are you saying that the prohibited area is the lowest part of the dropped kerb? My understanding was that the dropped kerb enforcement begins at the point where the kerb starts to lower which is of course not the lowest point. In any case, my vehicle was parked before the kerb started to lower - the CEO's pictures make it almost impossible to see this.


Hippocrates - wow, I didn't spot that one at all, cheers for flagging that up. That case also mentions the Council was unable to point to any other wording on the NTO which might satisfy this requirement. I have checked this on my NTO, no other such wording exists that might provide this information. Do I need to quote this case number the relevant details in my appeal letter?

Many thanks for all the input so far!

No, the prohibited area is, as the contravention states, where the footway has been lowered, not is being lowered, or is lowering, but lowered. Only the "flat" part counts.

Thanks for clarifying.

Someone should inform the CEO of this small snippet of information - I was miles away from the lowest/flat part of the kerb. This can probably be made out just about from the official, unclear PCN images.

Cheers

The appeal procedure for Barnet Council is via their online system and NOT email.

However, this seems very restrictive as their system only allows:

(i.) 6 attachments to be uploaded (max 2.0MB limit)

(ii.) 4000 character limit for the representation section. This is also in plain text so you cannot highlight key points.


Is this normal procedure? I may struggle with the 4000 character limit given all the valid points raised in this thread so far - I don't think it is fair to limit an appeal letter like this.

Any clarification would be welcome.

Thanks.

Previous cases at PATAS are not precedents but should be persuasive in similar circumstances. The council have to prove the contravention. Their photos are cr*p as they don't have flash on their PDA (they dispensed with separate cameras) and they don't carry physical notebooks and put their notes into the PDA so will not have made a drawing so they have no contemporaneous evidence. That should be enough to get you home and dry. If you are going for a personal appeal, as opposed to a postal one, I would just keep the case number to hand if the adjudicator is wavering on that point.

To answer a question you posed above, the lowered kerb is only the section where the pavement and the road are level with each other (sometimes the road is raised to meet the pavment but let's not confuse the issue) so the sloping kerbstone, known as the taper kerb, does not count as it is not level with the road.

Your traffic warden, #239, is a splendid member of the community by the way, always ready to help his fellow man!

http://www.barnet-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=23816

The number of the warden was tweeted separately



You can email barnet@nslservices.co.uk and should get an auto acknowledgment which is confusing but does say you can appeal that way after having said you can't.

Don't use the on-line system as you don't get a proper record of what you put in and they can go missing, would you believe it.

If in doubt after emailing also post it in to Worthing and get a free proof of posting.

Barnet are obviously in some sort of competition to see which council can get to the gutter first. Actually they seem to be there already !!

The NtO states clearly you can make reps. online or by email.



Read How to challenge again.

Thanks. I have read this and the followed the online procedure and this takes me to their own appeal system as detailed in my last post.

Sending the appeal by post is not possible at this stage as the NtO deadline expires tomorrow.





Thanks for this, makes sense.

I found the tweeter who posted that info, interesting stuff. Maybe I should include this in my appeal....or not.

I'm concerned that if I use the email route which isn't described on the NTO or the Council website, they may not accept my rep. I'll figure something out but cheers for providing those details.

Do not include any information from internet or press and stick objectively to the issues re your PCN only.

Thanks for all the advice and input - there is plenty to go on at the moment. Will draft an appeal on the basis of the information presented here and will report back on progress once I get notification of the Council's decision.

Cheers.

You must submit today. If you don't, you risk the council being able to disregard your winning hand and increase the penalty to boot.

Thanks for following up. I emailed the appeal in at 3am this morning so that's all done and dusted. Will keep you posted on the outcome.

Afternoon All,

I received a nice surprise in the post this morning - a Charge Certificate from Barnet Council.

This relates my ongoing case found here: Original and ongoing Pepipoo Post relating to this Case

I submitted my formal appeal to the NTO by email on 16 July 2013 (as per the advice given in the link above). I have NOT received any response to my appeal (only an acknowledgement automated response that my appeal email has been received), nor have I received a Notice of Rejection in the post. Is this correct procedure?

In summary, this is the timeline of events so far:

Date of Service of PCN: 16 May 2013
Date of Notice to Owner: 17 June 2013
Date of Appeal Letter sent: 16 July 2013
Date of Charge Certificate: 01 August 2013


What next steps would you recommend? Call Barnet Council? Write to them I have not received any reply to my formal reps and re-send my original appeal?


Thank you.

Assuming you still wish to challenge this, you should do nothing. Await the issue of an Order for Recovery and then make a Witness Statement on the grounds that you made formal representations (in response to the Notice to Owner), but did not receive a Notice of Rejection of those representations.

Provided this is submitted in time, it will be accepted by the Traffic Enforcement Centre and the Charge Certificate will be cancelled and the Order for Recovery revoked. It will NOT cancel the Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') and this remains 'live'.

Once your Witness Statement has been accepted, the authority has 2 choices. It can either cancel the PCN or it can proceed with enforcement. If they choose the latter route, then they are required to refer the matter to the Adjudicator at PATAS who will decide what should happen next.

Be prepared to show to the Adjudicator that you made formal representations because they will ask you when you did this and to provide a copy.

Agreed.

While you're waiting, you might as well check that your "appeal" complied with the requirements under the How To Challenge section of the NTO e.g. your name in the message header or main body text etc. If you've complied, then fine.

I'm a bit puzzled by the NTO which refers to submitting reps by email, but doesn't specify an email address for this purpose.

Guys, thanks very much for the advice and input.

I just called Barnet Council and spoke to a very helpful lady who spoke to the Parking department that deals with PCN appeals.

She was told by that department that they found my appeal email in their system and that they would now take a look at it. In the meantime, I was advised to disregard the Charge Certificate as it appears to have been sent in error. They said they would put this note/advice given on my case.

So that is what I will do, disregard the CC and will await their response to my appeal and keep you posted on the eventual outcome.

Thanks again.

Did you get a name of who you spoke to as if not it is a worthless promise. Ring back, get hold of the same person and ask them to confirm by email that the charge certificate is cancelled.

If they don't do that within 24 hours email them confirming the conversation and what you were told.

Mr Mustard - I was only given her first name which was Shelia.

I will call back and ask for an email confirmation - do they usually provide this?

In any case, I made full notes of the conversation after the call.

Thanks.

Definitely confirm it now you've stepped outside the system instead of waiting for the Order for Recovery

Pity they've been alerted to their failure in time to send a rejection within the 56 days

Gan, thanks.

It's okay, the appeal is solid and it shouldn't break too much of a sweat if it does go to PATAS.

Cheers

Not responding within 56 days is the least of their worries - they're dead in the water by virtue of this:



You've still not confirmed that you included all the the required info in your reps (your conversation only means that they've found the email, but you knew that anyway because you've got an email acknowledgement), but if you have then procedurally they're dead.

There is no lawful power for an authority to serve a CC when it has received reps as per regulation 4.

hcandersen - apologies, I missed your point about confirming whether I followed their appeal guidelines.

In a word, yes.

Specifically, as I sent the formal appeal by email, I made sure that I complied with the NTO "How to Challenge" requirements, that is, my name was in the message header and/or main body text. In fact, I put my name and address in the subject box as well as the main body and message header. So all that is fine.

You are correct that NTO doesn't specify an email address for making reps, even though the NTO states that you can make reps this way. I actually put this point in my formal appeal as well. In the end, I found the email address after going thru Barnet Council's website.

On the issue of the Charge Certificate, for the sake of records, I have just fired of an email to Barnet Council as advised (the same address to which I emailed my appeal) detailing the conversation that took place on the phone and subsequently the advice to disregard the CC and to await a reply to my formal reps.

If you do get an Order for Recovery, do not ignore it ! If you get one, complete and send off the Witness Statement that you got no Notice of Rejection. Barnet are notorious on this forum, so do not give them any leeway at all. They have illegally issued a Charge Certificate and thus have committed a Procedural Impropriety that should lead to the PCN being cancelled, although you'll probably have to go to PATAS for this.

Take no prisoners when dealing with Barnet !

Agree

They're involved in a suspiciously high number of threads where outrageous behaviour is alleged

Thanks for the advice - I will wait and see what comes through the post next..

**UPDATE**

Hi All,

Last week I received the below letter from Barnet Council.




It notes a "technical error" as the reason for cancelling the PCN but goes on to say that cancellation does not mean acceptance of my reps, hilarious. Having said that, the reps were watertight and they would have fallen flat on their face at PATAS - writing the letter in this fashion may give them some small satisfaction.

Anyway, a result is a result - many thanks for all the advice and input!

Cheers.