Hurger33
Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 21:59
Hi there
Received a PCN today, dated yesterday for the date of 28/05/13.
Says code 31 but after reading several threads dont know what to fight it under:
1) conflation issue re the two separate periods?
2) insufficient photographic evidence (only 6secs on 3 timeframes) not clear if there was space
3) My details are wrong on the PCN: first name wrong, surname incorrect spelling
Attached PCN:
thanks for your assistance
Hippocrates
Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 22:04
Incandescent
Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 22:24
How long were you stopped ? Previous adjudications have succeeded where stop was around 5-6 seconds on a de minimis basis. Only the video can show what happened, and TfL have been very naughty in only providing DVDs at a charge of £10, although there may now be an on-line facility. If there is you need to view it to see what happened. TfL will try to bluff you if you appeal, but the offence is "the vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles". This is NOT what the Highway Code tells you; that is only advice on how to ensure no offence is committed, and if followed would lockup all London traffic.
PCN may also have defects, but others are better than me at this stuff. Your name being wrong is unlikely to be fatal to the PCN; what is on your V5, as that is what they will have used.
Hurger33
Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 06:50
Hi,
I will have to arrange to view the video as there is nothing online. As i recall i was only stationary for about 10seconds, but i may be wrong.
As i recently changed my address with the DVLA, i have checked my V5 and can see the name has been messed up and is wrong. Do i need to contact them to set this straight?
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 23:04)
Sorry for being obtuse, is this my letter I should use to appeal the Pcn?
Hurger33
Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 09:17
QUOTE (Hurger33 @ Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 07:50)
Hi,
I will have to arrange to view the video as there is nothing online. As i recall i was only stationary for about 10seconds, but i may be wrong.
As i recently changed my address with the DVLA, i have checked my V5 and can see the name has been messed up and is wrong. Do i need to contact them to set this straight?
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 23:04)
Sorry for being obtuse, is this my letter I should use to appeal the Pcn?
I contacted the number provided and was presented with the option of £10 for a video (upto 15days to arrive) and a viewing next week Tuesday. I have asked for the booking and have been told this will put a hold on the PCN timelimit to appeal. Is this true or do I need to still file my appeal, bearing in mind I have no idea how long I may have been in the YBJ except for the timestamps on the 3 photos provided, which show a 6 sec difference in total. Or should i order the DVD?
Hippocrates
Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 10:06
It is a template which you should edit re how long you thought you were in the box@:
INSERT HERE WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR OWN WORDS.
I would send it as it gives them much to consider and may produce a reply with errors.
Hurger33
Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 16:16
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 11:06)
It is a template which you should edit re how long you thought you were in the box@:
INSERT HERE WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR OWN WORDS.
I would send it as it gives them much to consider and may produce a reply with errors.
I really appreciate your assistance, I will send my appeal today.
Hurger33
Thu, 6 Jun 2013 - 16:26
So tried to send via online appeal but TFL only allow 3000 characters so unable to submit. printed and sent via recorded delivery today.
Hurger33
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 14:49
I have recieved my rejection letter following my appeal. i will post it shortly. What do i do now?
Hurger33
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 16:05
Incandescent
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 21:15
QUOTE
I have received my rejection and as they state its only 6 secs. Can i appeal under de minimis also
I would definitely appeal on
de minimis, and there are successful adjudications to cite in your appeal. Somebody on here has the appeal numbers, probably Hippocrates. Not only were you stationary for a very short time, from the pic, only the rear 1/4 of your car was in the box. They really do try it on, don't they. Venal and rapacious is the only description one can use.
Hippocrates
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 22:09
Just register the appeal as follows: contravention did not occur. Add: full details to follow as and when advised.
I have done 3 of these this year and will assist in person if you wish. Choose personal hearing, preferably Saturday mornings after 11.30 a.m. EDW and I will find the cases: he is quicker than I! However, all that can wait. Register appeal by fax to PATAS. And keep a copy. Also state on it you want to call a TfL witness.
madandy
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 23:18
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 23:09)
Just register the appeal as follows: contravention did not occur. Add: full details to follow as and when advised.
I have done 3 of these this year and will assist in person if you wish. Choose personal hearing, preferably Saturday mornings after 11.30 a.m. EDW and I will find the cases: he is quicker than I! However, all that can wait. Register appeal by fax to PATAS. And keep a copy. Also state on it you want to call a TfL witness.
Therein lies a side issue that needs to be hammered at..... let me quote from my letter I sent off to Harrow today....
"You then claim that I was seen by "camera operator PA304" in "real time." That makes "camera operator PA304" a key and material witness..... ....."Camera operator PA304 is not a permanent identity and like a footballer can have his "team" identity transferred to someone else. As someone who has taken up the responsibility he/she would be aware of the responsibility and implications and therefore able and willing to be called to account if need be."
Maybe it's time we started dragging this scum out of their comfort zone. You may be interested to know that with TfL over a previous PCN (which PATAS squashed) I pointed out that since the witness was not named he could not be considered as a witness but that I wanted proof that he had the relevant qualifications.
I was told by a certain K Folami in his response that the names of the camera operators were protected by the official secrets act - real James Bond stuff this! - that they could not show me that he in particular was qualified but could assure me that all their camera operators are, and that (s)he, K. Folami would be prepared to attend given three days notice. I replied that he was not a witness but a prejudiced associate of the witness and only the witness would do.
You don't want "a TfL witness," you want "THE TfL witness and you really should insist on the camera operator.
Hippocrates
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 23:31
When they send the evidence pack, the witness will be identified: Miss Moneyeuro.
madandy
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 - 23:41
I still have all the paperwork from the previous TfL case including the "Official Secrets Act" claim.
Hippocrates
Mon, 1 Jul 2013 - 00:02
Hurger33
Wed, 3 Jul 2013 - 17:29
Hi Hippocrates,
I have written the appeal as per your instructions, I will post it tomorrow special delivery as I dont have a fax. If you could attend to assist I have requested a Saturday from 10.
thanks in advance.
Hippocrates
Wed, 3 Jul 2013 - 19:01
2130219066, (2130251284), 2130255580, 2110348372.
Hurger33
Sun, 21 Jul 2013 - 21:41
Hi Hippocrates
You asked if I wanted help on an appeal with PATAS and as I have the dates and time which were suitable to you, are you still able to assist?
My hearing is on the 31st August at 11.30am at Angel Square.
any assistance is greatefully aprreciated.
Regards
Hurger
Hippocrates
Sun, 21 Jul 2013 - 22:14
PM sent. Just noticed another flaw in NOR!
Hurger33
Fri, 30 Aug 2013 - 22:09
Hi All,
Hearing tomorrow, will let you know of the outcome.
Hopefully it will be positive outcome and thanks to all who assisted.
Hurger33
Sat, 31 Aug 2013 - 16:43
Hi All,
Many thanks for all the comments and advice, appeal WON!!
See thread for adjudication
http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/...eref=21303369222130336922
Appellant:
Mr Andre Neil Burger
Authority:
Transport for London
VRM:
FN57LZO
PCN:
GT55436523
Contravention Date:
28 May 2013
Contravention Time:
14:44
Contravention Location:
Battersea Bridge Rd / Westbridge Rd / Parkgate Rd
Penalty Amount:
£130.00
Contravention:
Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Decision Date:
31 Aug 2013
Adjudicator:
Anju Kaler
Appeal Decision:
Allowed
Direction:
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons:
Mr Burger attended the hearing. The Enforcement Authority was not represented.
The CCTV footage shows the Appellant's vehicle approach the box junction behind another vehicle. There are two lanes in this direction and the Appellant's vehicle is in the inside lane. There is room for one car to drive past the yellow box before the beginning of a bus lane. The car in front stops at the other end of the yellow box and indicates right to go into the all vehicles lane. The rear wheels of Mr Burger's vehicle are stationary in the yellow box for five seconds. This is a short period but sufficiently long for a contravention to have occurred (just!).
Mr Burger raises issues about the validity of the Penalty Charge Notice. Whilst the Penalty Charge Notice correctly states that the 14-day and 28-day payment periods begin with the date of the notice in accordance with section 4(8)(iii) and (iv) of the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, the Penalty Charge Notice then goes on to incorrectly state "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge Notice or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice..." when the 'date of service' provision does not apply to the 14-day and 28-day payment periods (see above) - it only applies to the local authority having a discretion to disregard representations received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the Penalty Charge Notice in question was served (in accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 1 to the 2003 Act).
I find the notice to be defective and I allow the appeal.
Incandescent
Sat, 31 Aug 2013 - 20:54
A bit of a blockhead, that adjudicator. Previous adjudications have allowed 5 seconds as de minimis. However, you won on a fatal error in the PCN, that TfL seem in no hurry to alter, indicating their contempt for the law, and the adjudicators
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