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Richtd5
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2013
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A14, Newmarket, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was caught by a camera van doing 92mph on the 70mph dual carriageway A14 on Sunday 13/01/13.

After receiving the NIP, as requested, I replied by sending the completed NIP pleading guilty to the speeding offence, together with both parts of my driving licence, and details of my credit card on 29/01/13, by registered mail to the address shown on the NIP.

I have signed proof of delivery at 08:59 on the 21/01/13

On 07/03/13 I wrote an email to Suffolk Constabulary Central Ticket Office explaining I had submitted the Conditional Offer and completed form together with both parts of my driving licence and details of my credit card but had not had a reply, or my licence returned, or any fine deducted from my bank account, and asking if the matter was still being processed.

The same day (07/03/13) I received an automated reply from CTOEnquiries telling me all payments and licence endorsements were handled by the Regional Fixed Penalty Office in Southend (where I had sent my licence) and supplying both their telephone number, and email address and their postal address.

On the same day (07/03/13) I received an email from the Suffolk Constabulary CTO Manager, basically repeating what had already been written in the automated reply earlier in the day.

I tried multiple times over several days to call the Regional Fixed Penalty Office telephone number supplied. It was constantly engaged, with no way of leaving a message or getting a callback.

After receiving the automated email reply from Suffolk CTOEnquiries, I sent a similar email to the Regional Fixed Penalty Office on 07/03/13, outlining the same details I had sent to Suffolk CTOEnquiries.

Having no way of knowing if my email had been received, but knowing there was no response to the constant calls I had made to the Regional Fixed Penalty Office, I wrote a letter on 12/03/13 to them outlining my concerns as well as my numerous attempts to contact them.

On 14/03/13 I received a letter from Suffolk Constabulary telling me no response had been received to the Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.

On the 25/03/13 I replied to Suffolk Constabulary telling them they were incorrect and that I had responded to the Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, outlining the dates I had sent emails and letters both to the CTO and the Regional Fixed Penalty Office. I sent this letter via the Royal Mail signed for service, and I still have the receipt.

Consequently, under the impression my licence had effectively been lost in a system I had no contact from, on 15/03/13 I applied to the DVLA for a replacement licence. This was duly supplied effective from 27/03/13.

However, on 04/04/13 I received an email from Her Majesty's Court Service (hmcts.gsi.gov.uk) telling me they do have my licence, but that dues to a large backlog it had not been processed, and that no forecast could be made as to when it would be returned to me.

Today, 03/06/13, I have received a Postal Requisition charging me with the speeding offence and asking me to enter a plea for a court hearing on 14/08/2013. In the accompanying paperwork is photographic evidence of the speeding offence, that I pleaded guilty to in January. There is four pages of evidential explanation outlining how robust the postal process is within the Suffolk Constabulary CTO, a copy of my acceptance of the Conditional Offer, and a copy of spreadsheet showing some, but not all of the correspondence referred to above.

Also apparent on the spreadsheet are details of when the CTO (or Fixed Penalty Office, or HMCTS - I am now so confused I'm not certain who is issuing what paperwork) actually applied to the DVLA for confirmation of my eligibility to drive, (12/04/13) that the DVLA had replied that a replacement licence had been issued, that the CTO, or Fixed Penalty Office, or HMCTS, had written to me informing me of the licence mismatch and requesting the current licence.

The problem is I have never received this request, and that the last contact I have had with the HMCTS, is the email on the 04/04/13 telling me they have my licence but can't tell me when it will be returned.

I am somewhat shocked, to say the least, to receive a summons to appear in court (in Ipswich) to answer a speeding charge to which I have already pleaded guilty, and agreed to the Conditional Offer, but due the the incompetence of the authorities concerned, has left me in this predicament which has already cost me a considerable amount of money, and looks likely to cot even more, because I will have to take a day off work to appear in court to explain the circumstances described above.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 16:55:13 +0000
Jlc
A postal guilty plea reminding them of this should help:

QUOTE
where a penalty notice was not offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the
amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be
disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


...but it's not guaranteed to work. 92mph could attract 4 points and an income-related fine and other costs/surcharges.

QUOTE (Richtd5 @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 17:55) *
After receiving the NIP, as requested, I replied by sending the completed NIP pleading guilty to the speeding offence, together with both parts of my driving licence, and details of my credit card on 29/01/13, by registered mail to the address shown on the NIP.

The usual process is to nominate the driver before enclosing licence/payment?

although it doesn't always work - see this thread for some background reading.
Gan
What did you receive in the first place ?

Was it just a NIP and a request to name the driver with a note that you might be eligible for a fixed penalty, or did it include an offer with the instructions for payment etc ?

If it was just the driver's name that they wanted, that would explain why you're having problems now
Richtd5
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 18:52) *
What did you receive in the first place ?

Was it just a NIP and a request to name the driver with a note that you might be eligible for a fixed penalty, or did it include an offer with the instructions for payment etc ?

If it was just the driver's name that they wanted, that would explain why you're having problems now

I received the request for the driver's name and replied with my details as required by law. I was then sent a Conditional Offer which I filled in and returned along with both parts of my driving licence and CC details - also as requested.

The problem appears to be that they say they have sent me a letter informing me of a mismatch with the licence, and requesting the new one issued by the DVLA. Unfortunately this letter has not been received by me, and consequently I have been charged with the speeding offence I have already pleaded guilty to via the Conditional Offer, but which they have not processed, and ordered to appear before the court to answer those charges.

Effectively I have accepted their conditional offer. They have not processed it and apart from a brief email, have refused to contact me in response my many requests for information, has led me to believe my licence is lost. They say they have asked for the replacement licence. I have not received that request. The result is a court summons.

Surely I can't be held responsible for their bureaucratic mismanagement of my data and paperwork? And when I go to court to plead guilty, I don't want to be penalised for their incompetence.
sgtdixie
The reason for going to summons is you applied for a new licence and THAT licence must be the one endorsed.

I am not suggesting it is the case here, but many drivers caught committing endorsable offences apply for new licences so that they can then 'show' somone a clean licence when in fact they have current endorsements.

You will have to explain to the court why you applied for a new licence. You can then ask for the FPN level of penalty.
AFCNEAL
You paid by CREDIT card and expected a transaction on your bank account? Are you sure you gave them the correct payment details?
The Rookie
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 07:28) *
You paid by CREDIT card and expected a transaction on your bank account? Are you sure you gave them the correct payment details?

Many people erroneously refer to Debit cards as credit cards and I expect that is the case here.
The Todd
Or when he says bank account he means credit card online account or something...
AFCNEAL
Possibly - but how many times have we seen cases go to court because the OP 'thought' they had paid.......but had insufficient funds, admin cock-up etc etc?
CuriousOrange
The issue here is pretty clear. The OP hassled them weeks after not getting his licence back and eventually gets a letter from them saying that they never received his licence. So quite naturally he applied for a new one. Nearly three weeks after that they admit that they had it all along. When they try and process it they can't because of the replacement. They then claim to have written asking for the replacement licence, yet the OP never received that.

Ever get the feeling that these CTO backlogs are causing a lot of people a lot of hassle out there?

Richtd5
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 10:35) *
The issue here is pretty clear. The OP hassled them weeks after not getting his licence back and eventually gets a letter from them saying that they never received his licence. So quite naturally he applied for a new one. Nearly three weeks after that they admit that they had it all along. When they try and process it they can't because of the replacement. They then claim to have written asking for the replacement licence, yet the OP never received that.

Ever get the feeling that these CTO backlogs are causing a lot of people a lot of hassle out there?

CuriousOrange, thank you. You have explained exactly my predicament in a single paragraph.

I can prove that their so called "robust and substantial audit trail in respect of all incoming mail" is in fact, exactly the opposite, as they have not recorded most of the correspondence I've sent them via Royal Mail recorded delivery (signed for & with a receipt), and they have recorded receiving an email from me, 4 weeks after it was actually received, yet replied to my email which shows the received it the same day.

On that basis, I hope I can convince the court that either they have either not sent me a request for my current (new) licence, or they have misdirected it.

My worry is that by having to go to court, I am not only losing a days income, but I could be liable for a larger fine, plus four penalty points, despite pleading guilty and accepting a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty back in February.

I have a very, very long, chronological record of the entire process to date, which I think shows there are reasonable grounds to believe the CTO, Regional Fixed Penalty Office and/or HMCTS have created their own bureaucratic black hole, which they are trying to lay at my door. Question is, when I read my submission to the court, not only is it extremely dry and complex, it even starts to send me to sleep. But it is a more accurate record, with verifiable proof of what has happened than the questionable evidence the CTO are submitting.

Does anyone have any constructive advice about how I can more easily present a complex chronology of the paper trail, to the magistrates?

Thanks for all the help and advice so far. I just don't think I'm anywhere near getting out of the woods just yet!

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 18:17) *
A postal guilty plea reminding them of this should help:

QUOTE
where a penalty notice was not offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the
amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be
disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


...but it's not guaranteed to work. 92mph could attract 4 points and an income-related fine and other costs/surcharges.

Jlc, thank you for the extract from the guidelines, but can you identify where in the guidelines it comes from, so I can quote it if necessary. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.


QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 10:15) *
Possibly - but how many times have we seen cases go to court because the OP 'thought' they had paid.......but had insufficient funds, admin cock-up etc etc?

This isn't the case in this instance. The Conditional Offer has not been processed. The court summons is because of a bureaucratic cock-up on their part, I believe.

QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 04:13) *
The reason for going to summons is you applied for a new licence and THAT licence must be the one endorsed.

I am not suggesting it is the case here, but many drivers caught committing endorsable offences apply for new licences so that they can then 'show' somone a clean licence when in fact they have current endorsements.

You will have to explain to the court why you applied for a new licence. You can then ask for the FPN level of penalty.

Hi sgtdixie,

Surely applying for a replacement licence, means it comes back with whatever endorsements were current on the original licence. There is no way I know of applying for a replacement licence from the DVLA which has a clean record of current endorsements. But of course, I'm no expert so could be wrong. In my case, the replacement licence came back with my existing 3 points from the original licence that I sent to the CTO, and they now appear to have lost.
Jlc
QUOTE (Richtd5 @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 18:59) *
Jlc, thank you for the extract from the guidelines, but can you identify where in the guidelines it comes from, so I can quote it if necessary. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

Page 189 of the sentencing guidelines here.
bama
QUOTE
despite pleading guilty and accepting a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty

say what ?
accepting the offer for the FPN is not 'pleading guilty'.
see
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...icle&id=178
and start reading at
"What does paying a FPN Notice do ?"
and stop when you get to "Now, and I ask the forbearance"
to get the FPN highlights
henrik777
It seems to me that you cannot be convicted in court.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/76

76 Effect of offer and payment of penalty.

(1)This section applies where a conditional offer has been sent to a person under section 75 of this Act.

(2)No proceedings shall be brought against any person for the offence to which the conditional offer relates until—

F2(a)in England and Wales, the chief officer of police, or

(b)in Scotland, the procurator fiscal or (where the conditional offer was issued under section 75(3) of this Act) the chief constable,

receives notice in accordance with subsection (4) or (5) below.
(3)Where the alleged offender makes payment of the fixed penalty in accordance with the conditional offer, no proceedings shall be brought against him for the offence to which the offer relates.

(4)Where—

(a)the alleged offender tenders payment in accordance with the conditional offer and delivers his licence and its counterpart to the fixed penalty clerk, but

(b)it appears to the clerk, on inspecting the licence and counterpart, that the alleged offender would be liable to be disqualified under section 35 of this Act if he were convicted of the offence to which the conditional offer relates,

then subsection (3) above shall not apply and the clerk must return the licence and its counterpart to the alleged offender together with the payment and give notice that he has done so to the person referred to in subsection (2)(a) or (b) above.
(5)Where, on the expiry of the period of twenty-eight days following the date on which the conditional offer was made or such longer period as may be specified in the offer, the conditions specified in the offer in accordance with section 75(8)(a) of this Act have not been fulfilled, the fixed penalty clerk must notify the person referred to in subsection (2)(a) or (b) above.

(6)In determining for the purposes of subsection (4)(b) above whether a person convicted of an offence would be liable to disqualification under section 35, it shall be assumed, in the case of an offence in relation to which a range of numbers is shown in the last column of Part I of Schedule 2 to this Act, that the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offence would be the lowest in the range.

(7)In any proceedings a certificate that by a date specified in the certificate payment of a fixed penalty was or was not received by the fixed penalty clerk shall, if the certificate purports to be signed by that clerk, be evidence, or in Scotland sufficient evidence, of the facts stated.

(8)In relation to licences which came into force before 1st June 1990, the references in subsection (4) above to the counterpart of a licence shall be disregarded.

(9)In Scotland, the Secretary of State may by regulations vary the provisions of subsection (2)(b) above



You gave them payment by card and they have acknowledged your correspondence eventually.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/69

69 Payment of penalty.

(1)Payment of a fixed penalty under this Part of this Act must be made to such [F1justices’ chief executive]or, in Scotland, clerk of court as may be specified in the fixed penalty notice relating to that penalty.
(2)Without prejudice to payment by any other method, payment of a fixed penalty under this Part of this Act may be made by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the amount of the penalty (in cash or otherwise) and, unless the contrary is proved, shall be regarded as having been made at the time at which that letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
(3)A letter is properly addressed for the purposes of subsection (2) above if it is addressed to the fixed penalty clerk at the address specified in the fixed penalty notice relating to the fixed penalty as the address at which the fixed penalty may be paid.
(4)References in this Part of this Act [F2(except in sections 75 to 77)], in relation to any fixed penalty or fixed penalty notice, to the fixed penalty clerk are references to the [F3justices’ chief executive or]clerk specified in accordance with subsection (1) above in the fixed penalty notice relating to that penalty or (as the case may be) in that fixed penalty notice.





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