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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] 81mph on 70mph limit, old address used
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midnightoil
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2013
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A27(T) Arundel Road, Hammerpot, UK
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Time: approx midnight
81mph on 70mph limit

I was driving through the area and noticed a flash behind - the area is not very well lit, so I didn't spot the camera as I approached it. I looked at my speedo to check, and it said I was doing about 75mph - I had just pulled out to overtake a car which had slammed on it's brakes to about 60mph (I soon discovered why!). After first flash I slammed on my breaks before 2nd flash - my speed dropped to about 60/65- I would have thought then that the marking on the road would show lower speed.

Additional:
I've recently moved house (to another part of the country), DVLA have been notified of new address - yet old address was used in the NIP (I received it as forwarded mail).

I also have a small business not far away in Emsworth, where a number of people have motor trade insurance and have access to my vehicles...

Should I do nothing - as they sent NIP to old address?
Should I contest accuracy of the test?
Is it worth pleading ignorance because other people have access to the car?

Any help appreciated - I've already been stung (unfairly IMHO) last year for doing 36mph in a 30mph, on a dual carriage way that used to be 40mph (and I thought still was). I'm not a fan of breaking the law, but here the NIP doesn't seem right to me.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:26:41 +0000
southpaw82
It's only worth pleading ignorance if you want (a) six points or (b) to go to prison.
sgtdixie
QUOTE
Should I do nothing - as they sent NIP to old address?

No, you must reply as you have the requirement.

QUOTE
Should I contest accuracy of the test?

You can ask for photographs to identify the driver. They know full well it is so you can check the pictures to see if the speed is correct but will usually send them out even though rear facing photos normally can't ID the driver. You may even have a reference number to check them on line. It is exceptionally rare for the reading to be wrong and you fully admit to exceeding the speed limit so is even more likely to be right.

QUOTE
Is it worth pleading ignorance because other people have access to the car?

No it isn't. A deliberate lie, which is what it would be as you KNOW you were driving, is attempting to pervert the course of justice and will end up with a prison sentence. At best a vague don't know answer will end up with a summons for failing to name the driver which will be 6 points and £500 fine.

Why do you think it isn't right when you say you were speeding?
Jlc
The flashes are usually 0.5s apart on faster roads - it would be impossible to react after seeing the flash. Indeed, you could not generate sufficient braking to get the secondary evidence to be uncorroborated with the radar measurement.

As you openly admit to exceeding 70mph it doesn't really matter - that speed will see an awareness course or fixed penalty at worst.

PCOJ cases are probably reported more nowadays due to the Huhne case but this is what can happen...
peterguk
QUOTE (midnightoil @ Sun, 2 Jun 2013 - 17:26) *
I'm not a fan of breaking the law, but here the NIP doesn't seem right to me.


Your speedometer will have been indicating between 85 and 89ish mph, which is clearly breaking the law.

Given the info you've posted, NIP appears to correctly issued and served.

As dixie says, you can request photos, but whether they turn up or not, you need to return the S.172 naming yourself within 28 days of receipt.
midnightoil
Thanks for the replies.

What doesn't seem right is that the road - dual carriageway was practically deserted, midnight - except the car in front which slammed it's breaks on too hard - obviously knew the road as the camera was obscured by bushes. What is the most dangerous here? Going a little above 70mph, or suddenly slamming on your breaks due to a camera? Why do people have to be so "righter than thou"? A little while ago the government were debating raising the limit to 80mph. Cars are safer these days, and only during off-peak hours can you even get above 50mph on A roads and motorways as they're so congested!

Flash in 0.5s - yes I responded and saw my speedo drop before the second flash, it seemed more like 2 seconds later. I have almost new brakes and they work well.
Logician
Nobody is being "righter than thou" you are simply being told the realities of the situation. Speed limits are of course a rough and ready compromise and may be completely inappropriate in some situations, however they are what they are and are enforced by law. By all means have a moan in the Flame Pit, write to your MP, petition Downing Street but on this particular forum we simply tell it how it is. Lying in response to a s172 enquiry is attempting to pervert the course of justice and is a serious offence, as a guy called Huhne and his wife could tell you. We will do nothing here to assist you to do that, for your sake and our own.
dawmdt
QUOTE (midnightoil @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 10:12) *
Thanks for the replies.

What doesn't seem right is that the road - dual carriageway was practically deserted, midnight - except the car in front which slammed it's breaks on too hard - obviously knew the road as the camera was obscured by bushes. What is the most dangerous here? Going a little above 70mph, or suddenly slamming on your breaks due to a camera? Why do people have to be so "righter than thou"? A little while ago the government were debating raising the limit to 80mph. Cars are safer these days, and only during off-peak hours can you even get above 50mph on A roads and motorways as they're so congested!


People aren't being "righter than thou", they are advising you of your legal position and what lawful actions are most likely to lead to the best possible outcome for yourself.

In a 70 limit, 71 mph is breaking the law and you theoretically can be found guilty for it if the CPS can prove it beyond reasonable doubt in a court room, these are the cold pragmatic facts, and whether we agree from a practical point of view unfortunately won't help you or form a defence (and is also best debated in the "Flame Pit" forum).
Jlc
QUOTE (midnightoil @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 10:12) *
What doesn't seem right is that the road - dual carriageway was practically deserted, midnight - except the car in front which slammed it's breaks on too hard - obviously knew the road as the camera was obscured by bushes. What is the most dangerous here? Going a little above 70mph, or suddenly slamming on your breaks due to a camera? Why do people have to be so "righter than thou"? A little while ago the government were debating raising the limit to 80mph. Cars are safer these days, and only during off-peak hours can you even get above 50mph on A roads and motorways as they're so congested!

Indeed, most of us probably agree but we can only comment on the law as it stands.

QUOTE (midnightoil @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 10:12) *
Flash in 0.5s - yes I responded and saw my speedo drop before the second flash, it seemed more like 2 seconds later. I have almost new brakes and they work well.

Your reaction time coupled with the time to move your foot to the brake pedal and actually start decelerating would be well over 0.5s, no matter how good your brakes are.

QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 10:24) *
as a guy called Huhne and his ex-wife could tell you.

Corrected that for you wink.gif I believe the motive might be hidden in there too...
midnightoil
Oh yes...

QUOTE
you need to return the S.172 naming yourself within 28 days of receipt.

Actually it is by chance that I even received it - as said at start it was sent to my old address - what if it hadn't been forwarded to me? DVLA obviously hadn't updated my V5C (for that matter it's been over 6 weeks and they still haven't sent my refund on a returned tax disc for another vehicle of mine!). The system is clearly no slick operation, no matter how much of our hard-earned cash they rob us of.

QUOTE
Your reaction time coupled with the time to move your foot to the brake pedal and actually start decelerating would be well over 0.5s, no matter how good your brakes are.

As said, it was more like 2 seconds, not 0.5 second. Unless it was flashing the car that was in front of me, and then me...

OK, after all is said and done... having dug through Sussex police website


QUOTE
The Speed Awareness Course may be offered for offences at the following speeds::

80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85 & 86 MPH in a 70 MPH Limit

Providing the conditions, time limits and thresholds are met, a course is offered automatically.

http://www.sussexsaferroads.gov.uk/the-spe...ess-course.html

The path of least resistance (and thus cost) will be to 'fess up and go through the awareness course...

Sorry for wasting everybody's time.
Jlc
QUOTE (midnightoil @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 11:53) *
Actually it is by chance that I even received it - as said at start it was sent to my old address - what if it hadn't been forwarded to me? DVLA obviously hadn't updated my V5C (for that matter it's been over 6 weeks and they still haven't sent my refund on a returned tax disc for another vehicle of mine!). The system is clearly no slick operation, no matter how much of our hard-earned cash they rob us of.

It's a mix of postal and manual updates - which generate many questions on here... The 1st NIP has to be served within 14 days of the offence to the RK to allow them to successfully prosecute. (Again many questions about the 14 days and missing post)

If it wasn't forwarded to you then a number of things could happen. For total silence they may just issue a summons for failing to furnish and indeed people do get convicted for this (6 points) without even knowing. (But there are processes to quash the conviction - back to the summons stage)

QUOTE (midnightoil @ Mon, 3 Jun 2013 - 11:53) *
As said, it was more like 2 seconds, not 0.5 second. Unless it was flashing the car that was in front of me, and then me...

Yes, it sounds like 2 separate triggers - a 2 second gap is not used (0.5 or 0.7 sec). You can ask for photo's to assist in the identification of the driver - however, they don't have to supply and being a Gatso they are from the rear so won't usually assist anyway. But they often provide and quite often supply both of the photo's to show the secondary evidence. (You can calculate the speed from the lines on the road) The 28 days to respond doesn't stop though - unless they grant you an extension due to circumstances.
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