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Mnementh
Hi All,

I’ve reposted this to a fresh thread because, as SchoolRunMum said, it appeared a little disjointed and the information was scattered making it hard to follow. wacko.gif

My mother received a PCN outside her home after the resident’s bay was suspended, I appealed (wording below) and was rejected by the council. I will now be appealing to the adjudicator and have to complete the PATAS form very shortly.

I would be grateful for any thoughts on which grounds had the best chance of success.

Some additional information:

- Waltham Forest does not have authorisation for its Parking suspension signs, not sure if that helps in anyway.
- Waltham Forest’s own guidelines say they aim to provide at least 10 working days notice unless there's an emergency in which case cars will be moved without being penalised. Does it matter that they don’t follow their own guidelines? (https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/Pages/Serv...suspension.aspx)
- There was no emergency; in fact no work at all was carried out during the suspension period.
- The NoR is dated 10/05/2013

Here's the appeal letter I sent:
***********************************************

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your recent letter concerning my correspondence with regards to the informal appeal for the above PCN issued.

I wish to make a formal representation on behalf of my mother on two grounds:

1. Other/Compassionate:

The reply from the informal representation mentions there were several working days before the actual suspension of the bay (15th of Jan) to when the sign was erected (12th Jan). The 12th-13th is a weekend leaving just one working day for a person to notice the sign and arrange for the vehicle to be removed.

The Walthamforest Blue Badge site mentions holders who have misunderstood the regulations are treated sympathetically; the blue badge was indeed displayed in full on the driver’s side of the dashboard – this is even partially visible in the photographs attached in your own correspondence.

The sign shows “No Loading” and is certainly not a clear indicator to an elderly lady (non-driver) that the “resident’s bay” is being suspended.

2. Traffic Order Invalid:

After seeing a BBC inside out report on suspended parking bays, I understand that Waltham Forest does not have authorisation for its Parking suspension signs. Even the 2011 court of appeal judgement required that the signage needed to be clear in its instructions. No loading is distinctly different to suspended parking bay, particularly for a residential parking bay. “Additional information” can only be used to provide further information on an already clear sign.

I understand that this is still the case and councils who have a legal obligation to seek authorisation from the DfT even if the signs are subsequently approved or reflect those that have already been approved i.e. signs from already approved councils.

In light of the additional information, I would be grateful if you could reconsider your decision and cancel the PCN.

Thanks and kind regards

*******************************************************************************


I have attached the PCN, photo of the sign, NTO and NoR
SchoolRunMum
I don't think you can make a formal rep on behalf of someone but someone may correct me if I am wrong. You could write it but word it 'as if it's from her' and with her name at the bottom.

''The sign shows “No Loading” and is certainly not a clear indicator to an elderly lady (non-driver) that the “resident’s bay” is being suspended.'' ?How did she get a PCN if she's a non-driver?
Mnementh
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 31 May 2013 - 23:06) *
I don't think you can make a formal rep on behalf of someone but someone may correct me if I am wrong. You could write it but word it 'as if it's from her' and with her name at the bottom.

''The sign shows “No Loading” and is certainly not a clear indicator to an elderly lady (non-driver) that the “resident’s bay” is being suspended.'' ?How did she get a PCN if she's a non-driver?


The car is registered under my name but she is the legal owner.

Mnementh
Are any kind members able to offer advice on the way to proceed at PATAs? Or might this be a lost cause...?
Mnementh
icon_hang.gif
EDW
They are supposed to give at least five days notice with signs.

The reg. keeper should sign the form.

register the appeal

ask for personal hearing


send this email/fax to council.

I require:

Traffic Order
Suspension request and order
Proof of when signs erected inc. photos.
Signed statement giving reasons why sign erected using less than 10 day period
Full ticket history and hand-held computer print out
All CEO photos taken at time of issue of PCN
DfT authorisation for sign
Legible copy CEO notebook entry
All evidence which you think proves contravention.
Observation1
QUOTE (EDW @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 17:30) *
They are supposed to give at least five days notice with signs.

The reg. keeper should sign the form.

register the appeal

ask for personal hearing


send this email/fax to council.

I require:

Traffic Order
Suspension request and order
Proof of when signs erected inc. photos.
Signed statement giving reasons why sign was erected within 10 day period
Full ticket history and hand-held computer print out
All CEO photos taken at time of issue of PCN
DfT authorisation for sign
Legible copy CEO notebook entry
All evidence which you think proves contravention.


Where does it say that councils are to offer at least 5 days notice might I ask? I think you'll find the norm. is 3 to 6 days in reality.
Those suspension signs in whatever borough look ugly and of course noticeable.
M
hcandersen
All you do at this stage is to register your appeal: you do not need chapter and verse, particularly when these are not in addition to the arguments made in your reps.

NOR dated 10 May means the 28-day period ends on 15 June. You're getting closer and closer to this date.

All you do at this stage is to register your appeal: there is no need to go into detail. Other than for your submission being copied to the council, no-one at PATAS is going to read and inwardly digest your argument until the day of the hearing.

If you delay registering your appeal by asking questions of the council in parallel then you are losing control of time.

Register your appeal i.e. grounds, personal hearing (we recommend) plus perhaps a few points in box 5 where these are in addition to arguments made in your reps to the council, otherwise these points are already in play and will be read by the adjudicator who will see your reps and the council's NOR.
Mnementh
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 09:00) *
All you do at this stage is to register your appeal: you do not need chapter and verse, particularly when these are not in addition to the arguments made in your reps.

NOR dated 10 May means the 28-day period ends on 15 June. You're getting closer and closer to this date.

All you do at this stage is to register your appeal: there is no need to go into detail. Other than for your submission being copied to the council, no-one at PATAS is going to read and inwardly digest your argument until the day of the hearing.

If you delay registering your appeal by asking questions of the council in parallel then you are losing control of time.

Register your appeal i.e. grounds, personal hearing (we recommend) plus perhaps a few points in box 5 where these are in addition to arguments made in your reps to the council, otherwise these points are already in play and will be read by the adjudicator who will see your reps and the council's NOR.



Thanks very much HC/EDW.

Is that 28 working days? On a straight day basis it appears the deadline is tomorrow?

In terms of details for the appeal, I wanted to include the councils failure to follow its own guidlines, ones published for the public to view. I wasn't aware of this point when I made my reps to the council hence wasnt included. Would section 5 be the appropriate place to raise this?
hcandersen
But this is neither the time nor the place for extending your arguments (other than in skeleton form for the benefit of the council), you do this during the period between your appeal being registered and the hearing date, a period that could be as long as 6-8 weeks.

The date of service is calculated by reference to working days but the 28-period for registering an appeal is days. Therefore date of issue of 10 May becomes served on 14th, which is day 1. the 28-day period ends on 10 June. I've just read my previous note and can't think why I've put 15th June (other than the early hour), it's not, it's the 10th.

Even less time.

EDW
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 04:54) *
QUOTE (EDW @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 17:30) *
They are supposed to give at least five days notice with signs.

The reg. keeper should sign the form.

register the appeal

ask for personal hearing


send this email/fax to council.

I require:

Traffic Order
Suspension request and order
Proof of when signs erected inc. photos.
Signed statement giving reasons why sign was erected within 10 day period
Full ticket history and hand-held computer print out
All CEO photos taken at time of issue of PCN
DfT authorisation for sign
Legible copy CEO notebook entry
All evidence which you think proves contravention.


Where does it say that councils are to offer at least 5 days notice might I ask? I think you'll find the norm. is 3 to 6 days in reality.
Those suspension signs in whatever borough look ugly and of course noticeable.
M


You might ask? Calm down. Read some PATAS cases.

Case Reference: 2130008435
Appellant: Mr Hugh John Lucas Marsden
Authority: Kensington and Chelsea
VRM: BK55XNR
PCN: KE2021816A
Contravention Date: 27 Nov 2012
Contravention Time: 08:48
Contravention Location: Abbotsbury Road
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Parked in a suspended bay/part of bay
Decision Date: 04 Feb 2013
Adjudicator: Edward Houghton
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund the penalty charge and the release charges paid.
Reasons: The Appellant's vehicle was left lawfully parked but while he was away in America the bay was suspended and the vehicle removed. A vehicle that is lawfully parked remains lawfully parked unless and until reasonable notice is given that the situation is about to change . If reasonable notice is given the fact that the motorist fails to receive it by virtue of extended absence will not avail him.

In the present case six days notice was given. Although longer than the Council's three day minimum notified to permit holders, this is less than a week, the sort of period permit holders might often be away. Although the fact that residents are informed that suspensions may occur at this short notice is a factor to be taken into account in determining what is reasonable it is not conclusive; and a Council giving less that a weeks notice of works which on the face of it must have been planned some time in advance should be in a position to explain why it was not possible to give more notice that that. The Council in its case summary does not provide such an explanation and the suspension record does not suggest that these were emergency works. On the evidence I m not persuaded that only six days notice was reasonable in the circumstances of this case . It follows that the vehicle remained lawfully parked and the Appeal is allowed.





Case Reference: 2120524132
Appellant: Mr Artem Lamanov
Authority: Camden
VRM: RN51CFG
PCN: CU34259606
Contravention Date: 28 Aug 2012
Contravention Time: 11:05
Contravention Location: Lawn Road NW43
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Parked in a suspended bay/part of bay
Decision Date: 14 Nov 2012
Adjudicator: Michael Lawrence
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund the penalty charge and the release charges paid.
Reasons: The Appellant's complains that he was unaware of the suspension of this resident's permit bay in which he parked before leaving the country and going on holiday.

Whilst there are no statutory provisions with regard to the placement of suspension signs including how far in an advance of the suspension they should be erected, Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England &Wales) Regulations 1996 requires an Enforcement Authority to provide and maintain signs to "secure that adequate information as to the effect of the (Traffic Management) order is made available to persons using the road". In this context this requirement involves an assessment as to where and how many, the suspension signs, are necessary to advise the public and whether it was practical to post advanced warning signs and if so, how far in advance they should have been posted. Ordinarily, unless the reason for the suspension is an emergency for which no advance warning can be given, 5 to 7 clear days is the minimum period of warning, but each case does depend on its particular circumstances and it could be more or less.

The Enforcement Authority's suspension record is some ambiguous as it records an A W S date as 29 th July and a suspension ordered date as 8 th August. The advanced warning sign was placed out at 20.00 on 9 th August, some 3 ½ days before the suspension began. The Enforcement Authority say that the reason why the short notice ( less than the 14 day target) was because the works were ordered late. It is not suggested that the works were emergency ones or any reason given why they were requested at such short notice, if in fact they were requested on the 8 th August rather than 29 th July.

I do not accept that sufficient and adequate advance warning was given and if the Enforcement Authority accept short notice for non emergency work, then it may be appropriate for leaflets to be delivered to residents, or the residents otherwise contacted, or vehicles displaying resident's permits to be removed to another place in the bay rather than a Penalty Charge Notice issued and then taken to the pound.

In these circumstances, I must allow this appeal.


Mnementh
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 5 Jun 2013 - 12:42) *
But this is neither the time nor the place for extending your arguments (other than in skeleton form for the benefit of the council), you do this during the period between your appeal being registered and the hearing date, a period that could be as long as 6-8 weeks.

The date of service is calculated by reference to working days but the 28-period for registering an appeal is days. Therefore date of issue of 10 May becomes served on 14th, which is day 1. the 28-day period ends on 10 June. I've just read my previous note and can't think why I've put 15th June (other than the early hour), it's not, it's the 10th.

Even less time.


Thanks again HC and EDW, smile.gif

You mentioned I can extend my arguments during the period between registering the appeal and the hearing date. Do Ipost/fax additional paperwork to PATAS during this time, or, do I simply produce it at the hearing - given that nobody will read it before then?
Mnementh
QUOTE (EDW @ Tue, 4 Jun 2013 - 17:30) *
They are supposed to give at least five days notice with signs.

The reg. keeper should sign the form.

register the appeal

ask for personal hearing


send this email/fax to council.

I require:

Traffic Order
Suspension request and order
Proof of when signs erected inc. photos.
Signed statement giving reasons why sign erected using less than 10 day period
Full ticket history and hand-held computer print out
All CEO photos taken at time of issue of PCN
DfT authorisation for sign
Legible copy CEO notebook entry
All evidence which you think proves contravention.



I had a reply back from the council. They sent photos they had taken, there isnt anything new there.

However, in response to the parking order request the letter says "An order is not required". Is this accurate? huh.gif


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