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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Two offences on same trip - questions
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
nick1579
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2013
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M1 Northbound Jct 32 to Jct 33, Rotherham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - This is actually two offences (2nd offence 5/5/13) on same stretch of motorway on return trip from South to Sheffield. First speed 58mph, second speed 61mph. Both temporary speed limit of 50mph due to roadworks.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 13 May 2013 13:50:10 +0000

Hi Folks

NIP wizard filled out as if I was vehicle owner (it's actually my father). He recieved two NIPs following our trip to Sheffield. I drove all the way. All I have done to date is got him to fill out s172 then send forms onto me. I have since completed my address and sent (SEPERATELY) to South Yorkshire Police.

I am minded to fight this as I think I have some mitigiating circumstances, but would value opinions on whether it's worth it (I realise it's a risk and could lead to far more cost/points/hassle than is worth it).

Right now I will wait until I receive my own NIP(s!). When I do, I may respond citing the following:

- as two offences were on same trip, I wouldn't have had time to "learn my lesson" from the first, so worth asking them to consider only enforcing one?
- the fact I wasn't even going that fast in terms of nominal speeds, and temporary limit/roadworks etc
- I do these sorts of speed on similar sections of the M25 all the time and never been pulled up, could cite inconsistency between constabularies
- 58mph is 1mph over rule of thumb of "+10% + 2mph" (and other one not far over)
- this is my first offence (well, did have another but it was dropped, thanks to this site)
- fact it was very same place (the old "can't be tried for same crime twice" claim)
- I don't live in this part of country, so not used to the roads
- return offence was at very quiet time of night, 61mph hardly dangerous on quiet motorway

Appeciate some of these are flimsy, but all taken together? Or would I just annoy someone who might come down even harder? Either way, I would like to request photo evidence given the speeds. Also, would it be worth offering to go on the speed awareness course to cover both offences? I guess that be a very good result!

Thanks for any knowledge/experience you can share.
The Rookie
Just to be clear, is this one offence going one way and one the other, or both going the same way and within a few minutes of each other?

Remove the identifying date.....
nick1579
one northbound, one southbound
Jlc
QUOTE (nick1579 @ Mon, 13 May 2013 - 14:50) *
as two offences were on same trip, I wouldn't have had time to "learn my lesson" from the first, so worth asking them to consider only enforcing one?
- the fact I wasn't even going that fast in terms of nominal speeds, and temporary limit/roadworks etc
- I do these sorts of speed on similar sections of the M25 all the time and never been pulled up, could cite inconsistency between constabularies
- 58mph is 1mph over rule of thumb of "+10% + 2mph" (and other one not far over)
- this is my first offence (well, did have another but it was dropped, thanks to this site)
- fact it was very same place (the old "can't be tried for same crime twice" claim)
- I don't live in this part of country, so not used to the roads
- return offence was at very quiet time of night, 61mph hardly dangerous on quiet motorway

Appeciate some of these are flimsy, but all taken together?
I'm afraid none of them help, even together.

You might have some angle if the limit was not signed correctly or the requisite traffic order is not in place. (Or you weren't actually speeding)

QUOTE (nick1579 @ Mon, 13 May 2013 - 14:50) *
Or would I just annoy someone who might come down even harder? Either way, I would like to request photo evidence given the speeds. Also, would it be worth offering to go on the speed awareness course to cover both offences? I guess that be a very good result!
You are not entitled to any evidence at this stage (prior to court). An awareness course can only be taken for one of the offences.

Just to be clear on the process - you nominate the driver, they return 'offers' (course/fixed penalty), you either accept these offers to avoid prosecution or go to court. I can't see a defence so the only likely outcome will be an income related fine, costs and victim surcharge. If you plead not guilty then the costs alone are likely to be £600. (£80 for a guilty plea) The offence must endorse.

QUOTE (nick1579 @ Mon, 13 May 2013 - 15:50) *
one northbound, one southbound

As The Rookie notes, if this was a few minutes apart they may be sympathetic. No harm in asking but expect them to refuse - A continuous offence would not normally include capture if opposite directions.
AFCNEAL
What's the mitigation you refer to?
nick1579
The mitigating circumstances are my list (okay perhaps more excuses than circumstances).

I can envisage (hope) them getting both forms together (or within a couple of days of each other), checking their system, seeing I have no prior offences and offer the course in both cases. I think this may be my best hope.

What's this income related element? I thought it was fixed £60, or does that only apply to the owner? (this may explain why the wizard didn't update when I put my income in, as I was filling it out as if I was the owner and driver).
Jlc
QUOTE (nick1579 @ Mon, 13 May 2013 - 17:00) *
What's this income related element? I thought it was fixed £60, or does that only apply to the owner? (this may explain why the wizard didn't update when I put my income in, as I was filling it out as if I was the owner and driver).
Only at court. (50% of weekly relevant earnings, further discount of 33% with guilty plea). [This is why it is often wise to accept the fixed penalty unless you have something to fight with]

johnjo42
I'm afraid that none of the matters you have mentioned amount to mitigation. They might possibly amount to excuses but none of them are good ones, I'm sorry to say. Also they were not committed on the "same occasion" so they are two separate offences. You may get away with a course to cover both offences if you are very lucky, apologise profusely and don't upset them.
JJ
Logician
QUOTE
Appeciate some of thresult!ese are flimsy, but all taken together? Or would I just annoy someone who might come down even harder? Either way, I would like to request photo evidence given the speeds. Also, would it be worth offering to go on the speed awareness course to cover both offences? I guess that be a very good result.

These do not amount to a row of beans, I'm afraid. Committing the same crime on different occasions is not at all the same as being tried for the same crime twice, be realistic!

By all means write and ask for any available photos, but do not refer to evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage, ask for them to assist in identifying the driver.
disgrunt
What would happen if the father wrote a single letter stating

on xx/yy/zzzz my son mr fast driver of xxx address was driving the car all day.

I could see that the authority would search for the offence - pick one and then process that, but neglect the other. the father would then have a failure to furnish charge but an absolute defence as he provided it. the op then avoids one lot of points / fines
norahl
QUOTE (disgrunt @ Tue, 14 May 2013 - 15:04) *
What would happen if the father wrote a single letter stating

on xx/yy/zzzz my son mr fast driver of xxx address was driving the car all day.

I could see that the authority would search for the offence - pick one and then process that, but neglect the other. the father would then have a failure to furnish charge but an absolute defence as he provided it. the op then avoids one lot of points / fines


Those details would be entered into the database and all outstanding items for all details would be listed. 2 s172's would then be issued to the nominated driver.

QUOTE (nick1579 @ Mon, 13 May 2013 - 14:50) *
... Also, would it be worth offering to go on the speed awareness course to cover both offences? I guess that be a very good result!

Thanks for any knowledge/experience you can share.

You have misunderstood the notices. It won't be you that is making the offers.
nick1579
well, despite the likely negative outcome, thanks for your help. I think!
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