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Phil_Barker
OK, been absent for a while. Everything has been running smoothly, tickets appealed/ignored etc.

Then this case pops up of a driver at work.

He is dropping passengers in South End, South Croydon, and they are elderly, yet not infirm. (He has previously WON a PCN for stopping in a bus stop with a wheelchair user at the bus stop 20 yards down the road!!)

As he is double parked, and (legally) letting the passengers out the vehilce as previously directed by police and the L.A., a police van with one occupant pulls up next to him and asks him what he is doing.
Driver explains, as the passengers have just exited the vehicle. He is then simply told to F*** Off by the officer in the van, who trhen drives off.
Understandably he is a little upset at the behaviour of a police officer, so follows him down the road and into the local Tesco Express where he parks (legally) not blocking the officer in, and asks him why he swore at him. Officer denies the incident, and tolls him to move on or he will get a ticket.
Driver gets upset, concerned, and drives off.

The police officer then leaves the tesco, follows, and pulls over the driver where he is arrested for failing to supply details (that were never asked for) and the officer is still using abusive language. At this point, feeling threatened, the driver (rightly or wrongly) called the police as he felt threatened and intimidated.

He has since made a complaint, of which nothing has been heard yet.

He has now received the letter below, stating the fine has gone up 50%. Interestingly, the date of the letter at the bottom, is BEFORE the date of the auto generated footer at the bottom.
Does this fetter the due process of the letter?

Where else does he stand.? He is more than slightly miffed!!!








I have drafted this email (from him wink.gif )

Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing to you regarding the above mentioned account and against the above mentioned Penalty Notice.
I received the Penalty Notice and made representations to the court, and a complaint against the officer that issued the PN as I felt it was vexatious. I have received no further correspondence until I received a letter from the London South East South and Central Courts saying that I owed £120.00 and had 10 working days from the date of issue of the notice. I have tried on numerous occasions to call the 020 number on the letter, and been in a queue for at least 10 minutes on each occasion.
I wish to know why my appeal was not heard/ or if it was even received. I also wish to know which is the date on the notice? The date at the bottom is 29th April, yet the date in the auto generated footer at the bottom of the letter is 30th April. I attach a copy of the letter, with the relevant dates noted. These would imply that the letter was typed up on one day, yet not printed for at least one day, fettering my legal right to have 10 working days to respond.
I did not receive this letter until the 4th May. Does the issue of court letters not follow the same as that when a PCN is issued, and the due process starts from the (estimated) date of receipt, usually accepted as 2 days from the date the PCN was posted.

Could you clarify these points for me, and let me know where I stand regarding the process of this Police issued Penalty charge.
There is also the issue of the abusive language used by the officer in question, and where my complaint of harassment is currently standing.


Any comments, additions or removals to make.




Many thanks everyone
sgtdixie
Phil

I'm afraid your account doesn't make any sense. Why would the driver call the Police when a Police officer has just arrested him?

Can I suggest you get the driver to post a first hand account of what happened. If he was unaware of the court hearing he has 21 days from finding out about it to make a statutory declaration. This wipes the conviction (including fine) and resets the prosecution case to the summons stage. It is then a matter for the prosecuting authority to decide whetehre to take this back to court.

At the moment we have a confused account with insufficient detail to give good advice on.
Jlc
Sounds like a fixed penalty that has now been registered with a court as a debt? (i.e. no request for a court hearing was made? Assuming the complaint would put it on hold?)
CuriousOrange
I fear this is one of those cases where somebody well-versed in how to deal with decriminalised tickets issued by councils tries to apply the same methods to a ticket issued by the police, and learns the hard way that it works quite differently.

As I understand it, you don't 'make representations to the court' having got one of these; you either pay the fine or you opt for a court case, which then means attending and defending the allegation. It's not like those council-ticket appeals, where you send in on a sheet of A4 and then wait to hear what was decided.

You haven't even made clear exactly what offence the ticket was for.

Phil_Barker
Sgt Dixie, he hadnt been arrested when he made the call. He was arrested BECAUSE he made the call and 'allegedly' refused to give his name, when the only interaction had been 'F*** off' and then 'I will give you a ticket if you dont go away'

Curious Orange: The offence is in the title wink.gif

"Section 5
Penalties for concealing offences or giving false information.

(1)Where a person has committed an arrestable offence, any other person who, knowing or believing that the offence or some other arrestable offence has been committed, and that he has information which might be of material assistance in securing the prosecution or conviction of an offender for it, accepts or agrees to accept for not disclosing that information any consideration other than the making good of loss or injury caused by the offence, or the making of reasonable compensation for that loss or injury, shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for not more that two years.
(2)Where a person causes any wasteful employment of the police by knowingly making to any person a false report tending to show that an offence has been committed, or to give rise to apprehension for the safety of any persons or property, or tending to show that he has information material to any police inquiry, he shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for not more than six months or to a fine of not more than two hundred pounds or to both.
(3)No proceedings shall be instituted for an offence under this section except by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
(4). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F1
(5)The compounding of an offence other than treason shall not be an offence otherwise than under this section."


F1 Ss. 4(5), 5(4) repealed by Criminal Law Act 1977 (c. 45), s. 65(5)(7), Sch. 13
Phil_Barker
Ok, got a statement from the driver, and had him sign it as i wrote it out. May get added to later if i dont get before i finish work:

A: Accused
P: original police officer
P2: Police whom arrived later.

A; Double parked, still with passengers in vehicle, and police pulled up.
P: Single Police officer in van asked what I was doingm then told me to F*** off.

A: Followed police to Tesco and spoke to officer. " Excuse me sir, why did you just swear at me"
P: "I didnt, it wasnt me"

A: "I am going to call the police station and complain about you"
P: " Move your car now. If you dont move it I will give you a ticket"

A: Moved car from Tesco, turned right onto South End, towards police station
P: Followed me and stopped me under flyover

P: "I will give you a ticket"
A: "what reason"
P: "Stopped nad double parked in South End"
A: I felt intimidated as the policeman was blatatly lying to me, having just denied the incident then repeated the alleged offence

A: Said i was calling police to the scene. When I dailled 999 policeman took phone out of my hand, cuffed me and put me into his van

P: Opened door while i was cuffed in the back of the van, and said on the radio "I asked you 3 times for your details and you refused"
A: I had been in the back of the for about 10 mins, and the officer was walking around, I could hear him, and always out of sight.

A: "You did not ask me for my details, you just swore at me" I tried to say when the radio was open.
P: Shut the door, then very soon after reopened the door and said he had called his 2 colleages to discuss the incident

When the 2 other police officers came in a car, and opened the van door they asked me if I could provide them with my details. I said " Of course, this is the first time I have been asked"

I proved my details, showed them my PCO Private hire (Photo and name card) round my neck, and they removed the cuffs.

P2 said the trusted both myself and their fellwo officer.

P1 issued me with the ticket.


A: I then went to the local police station to make a complaint, and they said I had to make an appeal against the ticket and couldnt make a complaint.
CuriousOrange
Okay, so he got an £80 penalty for wasting police time. If the recipient neither pays nor elects to go to court then they bump it up to 150% of the original fine, i.e. £120.

So what did he do to request a court hearing?

I very much think this has been mishandled by him and he's going to have to pay the £120 before it gets even worse for him.

sgtdixie
The good news will be that your driver will no doubt have his passengers who can corroborate his account. I am at a loss to understand how a PND could have been issued on the circumstances described. refusing to give details would not merit a ticket at all. I suspect that the full story has not been told.

Again all we have is a 3rd hand account from one side. As the result is so different from what should/could have resulted from the events described pretty much nothing we can advise will help much.
Phil_Barker
Thanks very much Sgt Dixie. I will see if I can glean any extra info.

Received an email saying

"Good Afternoon

Thank you for your email.

As previously advised, you must contact the Metropolitan Central Ticket Office on 0207 230 1199, to dispute your Penalty Notice.

Please note your account is on hold until 07.06.2013, for you to make enquiries with the Met Police.

Kind Regards

Miss F Nida
Designated Fines Officer
LCCC
"

The Rookie
WHY did he receive that email, they don't send them out the blue, so what did he send...

FGS get him to post stuff, all of it, not snippets, himself!
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Fri, 10 May 2013 - 17:13) *
Okay, so he got an £80 penalty for wasting police time. If the recipient neither pays nor elects to go to court then they bump it up to 150% of the original fine, i.e. £120.

So what did he do to request a court hearing?
sgtdixie
Joining the somewhat tenuous dots I wonder if the driver was deemed to have dialed 999 for no good and that was what generated the FPN for wasting Police time?
southpaw82
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 20 May 2013 - 16:27) *
Joining the somewhat tenuous dots I wonder if the driver was deemed to have dialed 999 for no good and that was what generated the FPN for wasting Police time?


This...
Incandescent
And the police wonder why the public are now so suspicious of them. We no longer have a police force, it has become an army of occupation. Or am I wrong ?
Logician
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 20 May 2013 - 19:24) *
And the police wonder why the public are now so suspicious of them. We no longer have a police force, it has become an army of occupation. Or am I wrong ?


Yes.
The Rookie
+1, sounds like he acted like a Dick and is now suffering the consequences, hey-ho.....
johnjo42
I'm inclined to agree
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