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Decado
Hi

Hope someone here can give me some advice. I have had a look through the topics and see the name of Armtrac coming up regularly.

I parked in a car park in Falmouth yesterday and put in £2.20 (for two hours) into the ticket machine, took the ticket and placed it on the dash board. Came back 1.5 hours later to find a Parking Charge Notice on the windscreen. We were puzzled as we had paid for two hours. However, looking at the ticket the fee is shown as £2 and the expiry time 30 minutes before we got back to the car. It would appear that the 20p was not accepted by the ticket machine or it is faulty.

Having done some research on KBT Cornwall Ltd trading as Armtrac Security Services it would appear that the best advice is to ignore them. is this still the case?

The ticket that has been issued is really poorly hand written and I can't work out which car park I was supposed to be in as it is unreadable.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Regards

Paul
Gan
The usual advice is moving toward challenging a ticket and requesting a POPLA code if it isn't cancelled.

This costs them £27 so companies try to avoid providing the codes to targets that won't pay whatever POPLA says

Assuming that you must have paid considerably more than the one hour rate, there's no chance that they would risk court for 20p

You could therefore, with your challenge, include a copy of the ticket you paid for and 20p for the difference.

This needs moving to the private tickets forum
Decado
QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 16:09) *
The usual advice is moving toward challenging a ticket and requesting a POPLA code if it isn't cancelled.

This costs them £27 so companies try to avoid providing the codes to targets that won't pay whatever POPLA says

Assuming that you must have paid considerably more than the one hour rate, there's no chance that they would risk court for 20p

You could therefore, with your challenge, include a copy of the ticket you paid for and 20p for the difference.

This needs moving to the private tickets forum


Thanks Gan

I'll send them a letter detailing what I paid -£2.20 - and the fact that the ticket machine gave me a ticket for £2 which their operative will have taken a photograph of for "evidence".

Is there any advice on what I should AVOID saying? Anything that they can use against me which they might interprete as me accepting "guilt".

Just like to say thanks for your advice (and all the other guys who give freely of their time on this forum).
ManxRed
Post the letter up here before you send it, we'll soon advise if there is anything in there that we feel might be said in a better way.
Salmosalaris
First thing to study is the PCN . Is it schedule 4 compliant to let them invoke keeper liability ?. If its not , they can only chase the driver. In that case wait for the letter to keeper then contact them for a popla code to dispute it on this basis. One idea
Decado
QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:17) *
First thing to study is the PCN . Is it schedule 4 compliant to let them invoke keeper liability ?. If its not , they can only chase the driver. In that case wait for the letter to keeper then contact them for a popla code to dispute it on this basis. One idea


How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?
kommando
QUOTE
How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?


Post it here with identification digitally removed, leave the original as it is.
Decado
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:00) *
Post the letter up here before you send it, we'll soon advise if there is anything in there that we feel might be said in a better way.


This is the letter I intend to send:

Dear Sir or Madam

Report on faulty parking ticket machine

With reference to ticket number XXXX, dated XXXXXX the charge for the car park in question is £2.20 for two hours parking. £2.20 was inserted into the ticket machine but a ticket for only £2 was issued.

The conclusion, therefore, is that your ticket machine is faulty and requires servicing and repairing so as to avoid any possible occurrences of the above in the future.

I trust that you find this information useful.

Yours, etc


Trying to avoid any suggestion of an appeal or admission of guilt on my part.
Salmosalaris
Id like to see PCN before passing comment
Gan
I wouldn't send anything until they've wasted £2-50 to get your details from DVLA
Salmosalaris
+1
Decado
QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:30) *
QUOTE
How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?


Post it here with identification digitally removed, leave the original as it is.


Hopefully this will work.

Front and back of the PCN as requested.



Gan
Hiding a model and registration number but leaving dates, times and ticket number isn't removing identification
Decado
QUOTE (Decado @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:00) *
Hiding a model and registration number but leaving dates, times and ticket number isn't removing identification



Okay, edited the post. Thanks for pointing that out Gan.
Ming Rider
OP, you're right. That is appalling hand writing. Where was this person educated, Chessington Zoo ?

If I'm not mistaken, the signature of the Patrolling Officer says 'M. Gibbon'.

Also, it says at the bottom of the invoice, "See overleaf for the action you MUST take." Misrepresentation surely and therefore, fraud ??
Glacier2
These are the same crowd that issued notices under the RTRA 1984 citing a made up order.

I would just ignore them.

Salmosalaris
I wouldnt rely purely on bad handwriting to make it non compliant. .Therefore the choice is yours.
A. Ignore unless you get stamped court papers
B . Await letter to keeper , they may screw up on the requirements for that and it costs them £2-50. Then write to PPC . Ask them to detail their case, whether it is for a contractual charge,breach of contract or trespass, so that you may prepare your defence. Demand a popla verification code unless they cancel your charge.
C. Contact now , much as in the letter you posted , but add the points mentioned in B. Trouble is POPLA isnt interested in mitigating circumstances so the problems with the machine wouldnt be considered .

Was signage adequate ?
Decado
QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 16:00) *
I wouldnt rely purely on bad handwriting to make it non compliant. .Therefore the choice is yours.
A. Ignore unless you get stamped court papers
B . Await letter to keeper , they may screw up on the requirements for that and it costs them £2-50. Then write to PPC . Ask them to detail their case, whether it is for a contractual charge,breach of contract or trespass, so that you may prepare your defence. Demand a popla verification code unless they cancel your charge.
C. Contact now , much as in the letter you posted , but add the points mentioned in B. Trouble is POPLA isnt interested in mitigating circumstances so the problems with the machine wouldnt be considered .

Was signage adequate ?


The signage was adequate so I can't use that.
Jlc
As the machine gobbled the 20p there is no loss.

Who owns the land? Who gets the normal parking fees? Or does Armtrac just scrape off the penalty charge? (Possibly with some form of kickback?)

Or does this link reveal?

QUOTE
Armtrac were not available for comment at the time of going to press. Amy Glover, visitor services manager for the National Maritime Museum said: “These cases are new to us and we haven’t heard from these individuals – but would be very happy to.

“We are responsible for the car park and contract Armtrac to manage the daily operations. We are governed by our planning permission which has a requirement for us to manage the car park.

“We do liaise with Armtrac to police the conditions of use. These terms and conditions are displayed in the car park, and as long as Armtrac enforce according to these, we cannot interfere with their operation.

We do not pay Armtrac a fee, and therefore it is at their discretion whether to pursue a fine or not.

“On occasions where we feel that there is a grey area concerning the fine we do intervene with Armtrac and request a review of the fine given.”


Interesting bits in bold.
Decado
It would be interesting to see the contract that Armtrac have with the Museum, if any! Or does Armtrac need a contract with them?
Jlc
...well without the necessary rights how can they even form a contract on land they don't own.
bama
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:46) *
These are the same crowd that issued notices under the RTRA 1984 citing a made up order.

I would just ignore them.


This is KBT Cornwall Limited t/as Armtrac Security Services & MBC Parking Services
Armtrac Security Services is dissolved (they were the 1984 mob weren't they ?)
essexdriver
Can't find their planning application on line - seems to suggest the documents were destroyed in 2005 and are not available to the public. It would need a visit to the Council offices to see the original. Bit odd but this sort of thing happens now and again. Would be interested to see that planning condition though - manage doesn't have to mean bring in the vultures!
Decado
Does Armtrac/KBT issue court orders on a regular basis? Have they ever gone to court and have they ever won?

I have seen one of their court orders on another post on this forum. Hand written and poorly worded. If the guy who wrote my ticket does the court order then the judge won't be able to read it anyway!

I'm still tempted to send them the letter re Faulty Ticket machine but perhaps replace "Parking Charge Notice" with "Speculative Invoice".

Again, thanks for the advice. I've usually paid in the past like so many others but this one really annoyed me so I'm not going to pay now I know more about my rights.
Gan
Vaguely recall reading that they have been to court and lost

I would be inclined to send them a letter now rather than waiting for them to go through DVLA

Point out the faulty machine
Enclose copy of ticket showing payment made for more than one hour
Enclose 20p in full and final settlement, better still a postal order for £1
Request a POPLA code if they want to take it further
Call it a PCN, not "speculative invoice"

The reason I prefer this to waiting is that in the very unlikely event of a claim, the court would look at the behaviour of the parties.

The OP is taking the initiative before Armtrac have incurred any costs.
He's offered a fair settlement while providing evidence that he genuinely tried to pay the correct amount

He therefore demonstrates that he's been as reasonable as possible and Armtrac would be very foolish to take it further.
It will also be informative to see what decision POPLA make in such situations
Decado
QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 19 Mar 2013 - 09:31) *
Vaguely recall reading that they have been to court and lost

I would be inclined to send them a letter now rather than waiting for them to go through DVLA

Point out the faulty machine
Enclose copy of ticket showing payment made for more than one hour
Enclose 20p in full and final settlement, better still a postal order for £1
Request a POPLA code if they want to take it further
Call it a PCN, not "speculative invoice"

The reason I prefer this to waiting is that in the very unlikely event of a claim, the court would look at the behaviour of the parties.

The OP is taking the initiative before Armtrac have incurred any costs.
He's offered a fair settlement while providing evidence that he genuinely tried to pay the correct amount

He therefore demonstrates that he's been as reasonable as possible and Armtrac would be very foolish to take it further.
It will also be informative to see what decision POPLA make in such situations


Perfect! Thanks Gan.

I'll update if I get any response from Armtrac.
Decado
Okay, I sent a letter re Gan's advice (but without the 20p) but have now received a "rejection" of my appeal despite the fact that my letter was not an appeal! Looks like a standard rejection letter. I have also been sent a POPLA form (4 sides) which has a verification code at the end - a 10 digit number. They have also sent me two pictures of the car park notices and pictures of my car. There is a picture of the parking ticket on my dashboard but it is not time stamped so the photo could have been taken at any time.

What do I need to post on here so that the appropriate advice can be given? Do I send them a letter asking under what grounds they are going to use in the POPLA so I can prepare my defence?

Thanks in advance.
SchoolRunMum
Defence? It's attack not defence that you need for your POPLA wording - and the clock is ticking as you only have 28 days from the date of the rejection letter.

Read threads discussing a POPLA appeal wording - here's one but there are others:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...20&start=20

HTH, please don't go it alone, do some reading of POPLA appeals on here and on MSE forums and draft what you plan to say. It should not be an 'appeal' it should be a lengthy legal challenge. Also don't waste this opportunity to get the thing cancelled by POPLA, so don't just ignore this stage like some posters have - because most appeals there do now win, we find, as long as they are well-worded, lots of valid points.
Vinesh Patel
POPLA is definitely the right next step. PPC's lose the majority of the time when faced with a POPLA appeal, which should be case closed for your case.
Decado
I don't know if it is relevant but one of the pictures that they have sent me is the list of tariffs. At the bottom of the tariff list is a sentence "VOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" which I assume would read in full "TO AVOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" (poorly taken photo). Does a PPC have the authority to issue fines?

Also, the ticket does show a fee of £2 (£2.20 was put into the machine). The notice says £2.20 for two hours. So, pro rata, the ticket should be good for approximately one hour 50 minutes of parking. We left before we had parked there for that length of time so, in theory, I am owed money as the car was not parked for the length of time purchased! So, there was no loss to the PPC or the landowner, rather a gain. Worth trying to get that argument in?
nigelbb
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 08:57) *
I don't know if it is relevant but one of the pictures that they have sent me is the list of tariffs. At the bottom of the tariff list is a sentence "VOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" which I assume would read in full "TO AVOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" (poorly taken photo). Does a PPC have the authority to issue fines?

Also, the ticket does show a fee of £2 (£2.20 was put into the machine). The notice says £2.20 for two hours. So, pro rata, the ticket should be good for approximately one hour 50 minutes of parking. We left before we had parked there for that length of time so, in theory, I am owed money as the car was not parked for the length of time purchased! So, there was no loss to the PPC or the landowner, rather a gain. Worth trying to get that argument in?


Absobloodylutely! Breach of BPA CoP - Section 14 Misrepresentation of authority
ManxRed
Lovely. One for the DVLA. Anyone got the most up to date contact email??

QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 09:35) *
Absobloodylutely! Breach of BPA CoP - Section 14 Misrepresentation of authority


Although we'd need the BPA to confirm this, presumably. wink.gif
nigelbb
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 10:11) *
Lovely. One for the DVLA. Anyone got the most up to date contact email??


My complaint to the DVLA regarding NCP's breach of the CoP was answered by Elizabeth.Symons@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
ManxRed
@ Decado:

Please send an email to the DVLA, with a copy of the picture of the sign, and state that you believe that this is a breach of the British Parking Association's Code of Practice (namely section 14 - Misrepresentation of Authority) by virtue of the parking company's claim that they can issue fines in respect of parking infringements and that you would expect them to investigate the matter accordingly.

Let us know what they come back with.
Decado
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom left hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Decado
And the letter that came with it.


Salmosalaris
What's an especially adapted vehicle ??
Don't you just love em !
SchoolRunMum
So as well as sending a copy of that sign with the fine wording to the DVLA with a complaint email, you need to work on your POPLA challenge. Please read other threads and links already given, include all points already made in this thread, and show us what you have drafted in a few days please. Not juist a soft appeal, a challenge with lots of points like you will see in the links already given, and including a paragraph about the breach of the BPA Code by calling it a fine - which leads nicely onto another paragraph about the amount being an obvious penalty/punitive.

Does the attached POPLA form include a verification code for you to use online, seeing as the letter doesn't?
swellchaser
Subject to a check later. That letter is word 4 word to the one I received for a 'failure to display' at Hayle. :@
Jlc
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???
Decado
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


They did!


QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


PS You are right - it is bottom left. Post now edited.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:10) *
So as well as sending a copy of that sign with the fine wording to the DVLA with a complaint email, you need to work on your POPLA challenge. Please read other threads and links already given, include all points already made in this thread, and show us what you have drafted in a few days please. Not juist a soft appeal, a challenge with lots of points like you will see in the links already given, and including a paragraph about the breach of the BPA Code by calling it a fine - which leads nicely onto another paragraph about the amount being an obvious penalty/punitive.

Does the attached POPLA form include a verification code for you to use online, seeing as the letter doesn't?


Thanks for that SchoolRunMum. I'll trawl through the other threads and links a draft a response. There seems to be a lot of other ammunition I can use beyond what I have already detailed.

The POPLA form (4 pages) contains a 10 digit verification code on the last page, the one where I have to fill in my details and reasons for my appeal.

I have now sent off a complaint to the DVLA. However, the jpeg I attached was too big to be sent. Zipping it didn't really help. I've used tinypic and pasted into the body of the text (the URL for email). Hope it works.

Can always try the lady referred to in someone else's post.
Jlc
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)
Decado
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)
minotaur
Another, but minor, point -

"The vehicle was of a class prohibited from using the car park."

So there must be other T & Cs not on display so (presumably) making any contract void.
Jlc
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:52) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)

I'm sure the comprehensive contract stipulates that no refunds are allowed for 'under usage'. You must have remembered agreeing to that when you negotiated and signed the contact? tongue.gif
bama
A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO
Decado
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 18:01) *
A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO


I missed that! From what I have read on this forum the POPLA decision is not binding on me, just the PPC. Quite a threatening tone as well.

Are they truly stupid? They have already given me so much ammunition in their refusal of my "appeal".
Decado
From what I have read on this forum (and apologies if I've misunderstood) should I be writing to the PPC to request:

- details of the contract they hold with the Maritime Museum, specifically the part that gives them the authority to collect money for Parking Charge Notices
- the basis for their claim - breach of contract, trespass, damages to property, losses
- details of the authority to collect fines as detailed on their sign

All of which I will need to formulate my POPLA appeal. Anything else I need to request?

Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

Any comments/thoughts welcome.
Jlc
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 here)
Decado
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:30) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 here)


Thanks Jlc. Regarding the pro rata thing, I was referring to my letter to the PPC. However, from what you say, I can't use that for the POPLA appeal and, thinking further, the PPC will probably just ignore it anyway.

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