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itsmerob
Hi guys, this is my first post on here. I had no idea there were websites out there which could offer help and as such, i'm at the appealing to the Tribunal stage after after my appeal rejected twice by my local council.

I received a ticket after parking in a loading only bay, the sign, loading only and the man pushing the wheel barrow, having looked in the highway code means, available to all vehicles of all types at any time for loading and uploading only. Slight contention about the sign firstly because someone put a sticker over the wheelbarrow sign and it was half removed by assume from the ticket officers. But anyway, not a full sign.

When I parked in the bay, at the White Spring in Glastonbury, I was collecting water in 2x 15 gallon containers, so obviously they are going to be very heavy when full. I filled them, then walked the 40 metres back to my car in the loading bay to find a ticket on my windscreen.

CODE 25 Parked in a loading bay during restricted hours without loading. observed between 16.16 and 16.21.

Where do I stand on this?
In my first two appeals I stated I was loading, but obviously wasn't loading continuously because I had to wait for the bottles to fill, which took 10 minutes in total, then I returned to the car. They said, the officer didnt observe me in the 5 minutes he waited.

I'm past the stage of being angry now and thinking that all traffic wardens should be strung up, but these tickets are issued very unfairly. How can I do what i went there for without having to leave my car unattended.

Any help would be greatly appreciated
alloageorge
council could argue that filling water bottles is not loading.
can you post up pcn?
itsmerob
After receiving the PCN on the 14/09/12, I challenged the ticket using there online service, on the 15/09/2012
I wrote the following;
I am writing to you to appeal the parking ticket PCN U500742414 BY CEO SC402 placed onto the vehicle xxx xxxx on

the 14th September 2012, 40 yards away from The White Spring Temple in Glastonbury.The ticket states CODE 25, parked in a loading place during restricted hours without loading.I believe the parking fine should be cancelled because it was issued unfairly and I believe I was entitled to park for loading purposes in the bay concerned.

I would first like to point out that there is no signage stating what the restricted hours actually are. Having double checked with the highway code, the sign means, loading available for all vehicles at all times. The sign is also defaced (see picture) making it not entirely clear what the requirments are.

However, my main argument is, the White Spring in Glastonbury where the ticket was issued is a place where local residents go to collect water which is pumped up from underground and fed into an outlet pipe, where people fill anything from small plastic bottles, to large containers. For the purpose of my visit, I intended to fill 2x 15 gallon containers, (see pictures) which when full, are very heavy, and even when empty are bulky, and could not be carried away in anything other than a vehicle. There are no other parking sites within a good half mile of the site, so not being allowed to use the loading bay, to collect and load the containers, would mean it would be impossible for me to take advantage of the water supply, due to the shear weight and bulkiness of the containers.
From what I understand, loading usually means, continusly loading, and not for example, popping into a shop to buy something and then load.

However, in this instance, it's impossible not to have to fill the containers first. The only way to load, is to collect/fill first, then load, once the containers are full. The whole process took me 10 minutes, from parking, exiting the vehicle, filling my containers, returning to the vehicle and leaving the scene. I understand and fully agree with parking restrictions, but in this case, there is no alternative then to use the loading bay for a short amount of time to Fill/load. Enforcing this ticket would in effect be saying, I can no longer collect water from The White Spring, because I would be unable to carry heavy containers. If this is the
case, then it would raise questions, as to why the council are making it impossible for people to collect water in large containers. The location of the spring, and also the lack of pavements and parking facilities would make it impossible to collect heavy loads without a vehicle. It surely cant be the case, that people are expected to walk over half a mile carrying heavy containers, because the council won't allow people to take a short amount of time to fill their bottles, before loading takes place. The loading bay, which is quite long, was also empty, which would allow many more vehicles to load even with my vehicle parked there. There was no blocking of the road, or causing an obstruction, merely, myself, parking, filling my containers, then leaving. If the CEO didn't observe any loading for 5 minutes, it's because filling the bottles takes longer than 5 minutes in my case, due to the size of the containers. I can't see what else I could of done to collect the water, without struggling by parking somewher else half a mile away, which would entail carrying heavy containers in the road itself, because the road leading from the White Spring has no pavement. Surely that would be very dangerous? I understand the burden of proof is with me to prove that i was loading, However It's very difficult to supply any proof that I was collecting water, because the outlet is an unmanned pipe. It's not something you make a prior
arrangment for. If I had known I had to supply proof, I would of made a video diary of the whole excerise. However, I naturally assumed that the what I was doing is considered loading. Why else would I be at the White Spring? There is nothing else there except a spring. The very nature of collecting water means having to wait a few minutes while the containers fill. Cointinusly, returning to the vehicle is not an option I hope in light of the information I have provided that common sense will prevail and that you will understand that for people to collect water from this spot in heavy containers, there is simply no alternative then to park in the loading way for a few minutes, and that the CEO maynot always see the loading taking place, and that it is very difficult to provide proof of loading in this instance, and that if forced to park further away from the site could be very dangerous, no pavements, and physically only possible for very very strong people.

A bit long winded and waffly I know. Anyway, I received a letter (first image) dated the 20/09/12 rejecting my challenge. I was then sent a letter to owner of the vehicle , dated 17/10/12 given another 28 days to either pay or challenge again. On the 8/11/12 I challenged the PCN again, using there online service. I basically said pretty much what i said in the first challenge. I then never heard of them again, until my partner received a letter, dated 15/02/13 see second image

The second image saying, I hadn't appealed or paid so I now have to pay £105. My partner called them on the 16/02/13 to say it was still under challenge as far as I was concerned, to which they replied yes we have it here, but it was rejected again. To which she replied, that she hadn't heard anything off them to state that. They agreed to send out the rejection letter again and reinstate the £70 pay now option or appeal to a tribunal with 28 days. She received the lost letter on the 18/02/13, third image saying pay now or appeal.
This is where I am at now. Sorry for any confusion
itsmerob
Click to view attachmentAlso got these pics. One shows just how impossible it would be to carry these containers when full of water.. the other is the sign which is partly defaced and a view of the bay on the road. The spring is about 40 metres down the road, where you can just make out a building. The car in the picture is not mine. Ita lso shows how far I would have to walk to load and why the Ticketing officer would not of seen me filling water bottles
alloageorge
again,council can argue that you can drop some one off with
the bottles then pick back up when full.
adjudicator may agree with you but its a gamble.
(sorry,not a gamble if you are at adjudication stage)

in any appeal it would be good to know why you need so much water,
backed up by photos.also ask for the traffic order for the bay.
itsmerob
These are the pics the warden took. I took them from there website

What's a traffic order of the day?
I need so much water so I don't have to keep coming back to get more. The spring in Glastonbury is natural mineral water. You can buy it in Harrods for £5 a bottle. The spring as an outlet pipe for public use, so people go there and fill up there bottles.
So do you think its just a case of me arguing my case on the day without any legal stuff on my side and hope the tribunal sees that the council are being unfair?

Does the defaced sign carry and weight?
ItchyCrakus
As soon as more experts get here they will want to see all of the communications you have had with the council. May I suggest you get scanning and remove your personal details.

*edited to remove contentious wording.
itsmerob
Ok. Thank You. I have removed the car reg number. Is there anything else I need to remove?
I'll scan in any other documentation I have and post it
ItchyCrakus
Google location would be good to have.
alloageorge
map
if this is correct place then the loading bay looks purpose built for the well.

also nice view of guy sticking fingers up to camera
itsmerob
The google link Alloageorge posted is the right place. Everyone who visits the well as always thought for the bay was specifically for people loading water. The council should put a sign up saying otherwise if its not the case. I know the guy in the picture. He's heavily into freeman of the land etc. Glastafarians dont like the state and especially Stasi local councils
qafqa
QUOTE
They said on a follow up letter that time is allowed to carry goods to a building but not to install or unpack...

There is a detailed London based loading/unloading exemptions key case here

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.g...ocs/LOADADJ.pdf

QUOTE
I stated I was loading, but obviously wasn't loading continuously because I had to wait for the bottles to fill, which took 10 minutes in total, then I returned to the car.

MACLEOD v WOJKOW
The van was left parked for 15 - 20 minutes, the woman was inside the premises for 12 - 15 minutes and the van was left unvisited for about 12 minutes. The delay was caused by her having to wait while a parcel was made up for despatch. The exemption covered waiting “for so long as may be necessary to enable goods to be loaded on to or unloaded from the vehicle.


The exemption in the above example would be in the Traffic Order

QUOTE
What's a traffic order of the day?


http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/tma-...ns-answered.pdf

The TRO can be ordered from the council, a copy should be in their evidence pack for
you and the TPT at the adjudication or there may be a copy here,
http://www.somerset.gov.uk/irj/public/serv...lation%20orders

Please post all of the PCN, the close up views prevent the experts
seeing the full text to check it for errors.
ItchyCrakus
QUOTE (itsmerob @ Tue, 26 Feb 2013 - 13:18) *
The google link Alloageorge posted is the right place. Everyone who visits the well as always thought for the bay was specifically for people loading water. The council should put a sign up saying otherwise if its not the case. I know the guy in the picture. He's heavily into freeman of the land etc. Glastafarians dont like the state and especially Stasi local councils



FMOTL stuff wont get you off this but we might wink.gif
itsmerob
Full ticket attached. Sorry if it's not perfect, I havent got a scanner and are having to take photos of it.

How long does it take to get a traffic order from a council. From experience I know they are very slow at everything they do
itsmerob
Just found this
http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/council/board3...0Management.htm
Section 4 Proposals...

providing a ‘loading and unloading’ area at the bottom of Wellhouse Lane to facilitate the collection of water from the spring;

So it seems the bay is intended for collection of water... so its more of a case that they are saying they didnt observe loading
orford
QUOTE (itsmerob @ Tue, 26 Feb 2013 - 14:03) *
Just found this
http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/council/board3...0Management.htm
Section 4 Proposals...

providing a ‘loading and unloading’ area at the bottom of Wellhouse Lane to facilitate the collection of water from the spring;

So it seems the bay is intended for collection of water... so its more of a case that they are saying they didnt observe loading
I'd say that is pretty much game, set and match. take it all the way to adjudication if necessary.
itsmerob
Having read it again It looks like only a proposal. I cant find anything concrete yet, on the somerset council website that says the bay is for this use.
hcandersen
Forget about the contravention, it's not relevant for the moment.

You were served with a PCN is Sept. 2012.
You say you've appealed twice, I therefore presume you challenged; you received a rejection; you were subsequently served with a NTO; you made representations; these were rejected; and you were served with a Notice of Rejection which gave you two time-restricted options: to pay or to register an appeal.

So where are you?

While we discuss the contravention your time is trickling away and you could find that you've been timed out.

So let's see your reps and their NOR with dates left in.
itsmerob
The second rejection I received on the 18/02/2013 7 days ago, and says I have 28 days to appeal to a tribunal. Its posted above in the first set of images alongside the PCN.

What's my REPS?
hcandersen
PCN - the first notice served; Challenge - you, as person receiving the PCN, disputing the penalty charge with the enforcement authority;
Notice to Owner - notice sent to the owner (I assume you) stating that they are liable for the penalty;
Representations - what the NTO allows the owner to make to dispute the penalty;
Notice of Rejection - the authority's rejection of those representations;
Appeal - the owner's submission to an adjudicator.
You've not made any appeals, just a challenge and reps.
You've not posted the NOR, as far as I can see you've posted one page of at least a 2-page doc, and that page is incomplete.
The reason I didn't know it was supposed to be a NOR is that it doesn't state that it is, which is very slack on the part of the authority and gives an indication as to its competence which is borne out by the incorrect reference to your rights of appeal at the bottom of the page. Unless this error is remedied on the missing pages it's grounds of appeal on its own.
All docs pl.
Incandescent
QUOTE (itsmerob @ Tue, 26 Feb 2013 - 15:12) *
Having read it again It looks like only a proposal. I cant find anything concrete yet, on the somerset council website that says the bay is for this use.

OK, that's what a 2002 document states, and now in 2013, lo and behold there is just such a bay where the document proposes it to be ! Seems too much like co-incidence to me. So IMHO this needs to got to adjudication, as you were parked in the bay for the exact purpose it was installed. Loading activities generally cover all those ancillary activities necessary for the loading, it does not have to be continuous, and there are adjudications that confirm this.
itsmerob
I tried to upload the full pages but it says I have run out of space. I have managed to replace the first two letters of rejection that I received back from them.On the back of the letters it says i have choices, pay now, appeal etc.
The car is not owned by me. It's my partners. I was using it for the purpose of collecting the water. I challenged under my name, which they acknowledged by replying to me, then they sent the next rejection to the owner, my partner and are now holding her liable
Incandescent
This is correct, the RK on the V5 is responsible for CPE penalties. However you can represent her at an adjudication.
itsmerob
That's just as well because shes already given most of dinners to the dog since this happened.

I think the document from 2002 (link above)stating proposals for a loading bay to facilitate the collection of water, and low and behold in 2012 there is one there now, is a good angle to attack. If the bay exists for this reason, then they have to accept that when filling bottles you will be away from the car and therefore continuous loading wont be observed. Any delay in returning to the car will be a result of an activity that they themselves have made a loading bay available for.
EDW
You appear to have been served with a Charge Cert.

Do you know what this means?


itsmerob
No idea no.
EDW
http://www.patas.gov.uk/tmaadjudicators/tm...enforcement.htm


read all of it.
itsmerob
Looks just like the same as PCN. If you don't pay within 18 days, it doubles. I'm going to appeal to a tribunal anyway, so it dosn't matter to me.
EDW
I dont think you really understand what has happened.

alloageorge
where does the letter you recently received say you have 28 days to appeal.
you have replaced your pcn image with a charge certificate?



you wrote
"The second rejection I received on the 18/02/2013 7 days ago, and says I have 28 days to appeal to a tribunal. Its posted above in the first set of images alongside the PCN."
Incandescent
Please post up this second rejection letter so we can see what it says, because you have posted up a Charge Certificate. This is normally issued when there has been no payment or appeal in response to a Notice to Owner.
hcandersen
You cannot short cut this process and use your own terms. On the basis of what you've posted your partner is either in the clear or b******d.
You've posted a charge certificate whose date is out of focus but is between 10 and 19 Feb which means either:No reps were made on receipt of the NTO, or They were made too late and disregarded, or
Reps were made and rejected and neither the penalty charge was paid nor the matter taken to appeal within the 28-days period allowed, or
The council have screwed up.
If you can't post docs then post a clear timeline with the correct terms used to describe items e.g. NTO, representations, notice of rejection of representations etc, actions and dates.
At present you seem to be outside the process with no way of pursuing your case and with a bill for a minimum of £105.
Forget parking bays, TROs, signs, lines, they're not relevant at this point.
itsmerob
It is a charge, but made in error. They said they had rejected my second challenge and wrote to my partner, the owner of the car to state this. But we didn't receive it. We called them and they agreed to send out the original letter again and reinstate back to the choice of paying £70 or going to a tribunal.
I have edited the original message near the top which explains much better where I am now, including images of all 3 letters.
hcandersen
Still unsatisfactory. I'm sorry, but you must post docs.

The council have NO power to re-offer your opportunity to appeal, it's not their decision.

The regs provide that the person who made reps and on whom a Notice of Rejection has been served has the period of 28 days beginning on the date of service of the NOR in which to register an appeal with the adjudicator. After that period a request to make an appeal can still be submitted to the adjudicator who will determine whether the grounds for submitting the appeal out of time are acceptable. If they are, it will be registered, if not, then it won't.

This has nothing to do with the council.

If the council served a NOR and then wrote to you again with a new "NOR" date, this is a serious procedural impropriety and if you could get to appeal you would win.

Also, if they served a Charge Certificate lawfully and it wasn't received then they could, on your application, re-send this. But that's not what you say has happened, which makes me wonder whether they sent the CC prematurely, which is another grounds of appeal.

But how are we to know, you don't post docs and this is like pulling teeth.

Bring all the relevant docs together and re-post. There is no other way.

I feel you're on the verge of dragging defeat from the jaws of victory.
itsmerob
I don't understand what documentation You are referring to. I have posted pictures of everything I have received from the council. The original PCN ticket, issued 14/09/12. (picture above)The challenge text pasted from a word document that I sent to them electronically by using there online challenge system on 15/09/12. The letter of rejection I received from them dated 20/09/12 (picture above). Followed by letter to owner, my partner dated 17/10/12.(picture above) I challenge it again using my name, again online, through there online challenge system on the 8/11/12, I have an email receipt of this.

Then I didn't hear anything off them until my partner received the raised charge to £105 on the 15/02/13.(picture above) My partner called them to say the issue was still in second challenge stage and we were waiting to hear from them about the outcome of this second challenge. They told her, the second challenge had been rejected and they had sent a letter out stating this, which we had not received. They then sent out another letter on the 18/02/13 (picture above) which was the letter we should of received but hadn't. Over the phone and in this letter they state we have 28 days to appeal to a tribunal or pay £70.

This is the only documentation we have from them. There are pictures of all letters in earlier comments including the PCN and 4 letters from them.
itsmerob
I have reposted the whole topic onto a new post because this one got a little confusing. Sorry about that, but i didnt understand the jargon, process etc..
StuartBu
QUOTE (itsmerob @ Wed, 27 Feb 2013 - 19:13) *
I have reposted the whole topic onto a new post because this one got a little confusing. Sorry about that, but i didnt understand the jargon, process etc..


Which is here >>
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77051&hl=
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