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CSW86
Hi,

I received a PCN on Monday for allegedly parking in a suspended bay. I did not see a sign denoting that the bay was suspended. I think I have a good chance of appeal given that the 10 pictures provided as evidence by LBHF do not show a suspended bay sign near my car. Also there is no picture showing the PCN clearly visible, which I believe is a prerequisite. What are your thoughts?

I attach the PCN and pictures below.

Thanks,

CSW





Before moving:






Photo 9 [Could not post thumbnail due to limit of 10 images]

Photo 10 [Could not post thumbnail due to limit of 10 images]

Not sure but probably before:


After moving:








Hippocrates
2120659696 http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/
hcandersen
Look at the photos - they don't show the vehicle in the same place. Was it moved by the council?

Full story please.
CSW86
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 08:17) *
Look at the photos - they don't show the vehicle in the same place. Was it moved by the council?

Full story please.


Thank you for your reply, hcandersen.

Yes, the vehicle was relocated by the council. You can see the truck/crane in the background of some of the pictures. I discovered the vehicle was moved when I returned from work on Monday evening (I had parked it Sunday evening). It was moved to a parking bay on the other side of the road pretty much in line with where it was before.

I have edited my previous post to indicate which images are before and after the relocation.

Thanks,

CSW
Hippocrates
Still don't see any suspension signs. Ask for a copy of the authorisation from the council and the sign authorised.
CSW86
Thanks Hippocrates. I have sent a request to LBHF for all full format photos that relate to both the alleged infringement and the suspension of the parking place, as well as a copy of the sign and the authorisation for the sign.

I'll let you know what I hear from them.
EDW
QUOTE (CSW86 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 13:53) *
Thanks Hippocrates. I have sent a request to LBHF for all full format photos that relate to both the alleged infringement and the suspension of the parking place, as well as a copy of the sign and the authorisation for the sign.

I'll let you know what I hear from them.




Get copy of CEO notebook and the hand-held computer print-out
CSW86
QUOTE (EDW @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 15:23) *
QUOTE (CSW86 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 13:53) *
Thanks Hippocrates. I have sent a request to LBHF for all full format photos that relate to both the alleged infringement and the suspension of the parking place, as well as a copy of the sign and the authorisation for the sign.

I'll let you know what I hear from them.




Get copy of CEO notebook and the hand-held computer print-out


Thanks EDW. I have also requested the CEO notes.

Assuming I do not receive this information before the 14 day discount period expires, I was thinking of making an informal appeal along the following lines:

I have a resident's permit and parked my vehicle in a resident's parking space. When I parked on the evening of Sunday 9 February 2013, there were no suspension signs near my car. The evidence provided by the CEO does not show my vehicle together with a suspension sign in the same shot and nor does it even show a suspension sign. I do not know what the reason for the suspension was, nor what the timeframe was, nor which parking place was suspended. Furthermore, I did not receive any written notice that the parking place outside my residence was being suspended. Therefore, I submit that the contravention did not occur.

What are your thoughts?
EDW
Case Reference: 2120494676
Appellant: Mr Paul Andrae Roper
Authority: Tower Hamlets
VRM: GL02VSN
PCN: TT20699212
Contravention Date: 29 May 2012
Contravention Time: 09:32
Contravention Location: Old Bethnal Green Road E2
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Parked in a suspended bay/part of bay
Decision Date: 26 Oct 2012
Adjudicator: Joanne Oxlade
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons: The issue in the case is whether the signage was adequate.

The local authority case is that the Appellant's vehicle was parked in a suspended bay, during the period of restriction, and so a Penalty Charge Notice was issued to the vehicle.

The local authority rely on the parking attendant's notes and photographs.

The Appellant says that when he parked the night before on 28 th May 2012, there were no suspension signs which is well used to seeing in London, nor when he retuned in the evening on 29 th May 2012.

I have carefully considered the evidence adduced.

The local authority say that the signage was put in place on 22 nd May, so well in advance of the restriction. However, the local authority have adduced no evidence of the proximity of the signage to the bay. The parking attendant has taken photographs of the vehicle and the sign, but none of the photographs shows them proximate to one another in the same photograph. Whilst the parking attendant has referred to the signage in relation to a particular junction, the proximity to the vehicle is not known.

The burden rests on the local authority to show that the signage is adequate. On the evidence adduced by the local authority I am not satisfied that this is so.

I therefore allow the appeal.
CSW86
Thank you EDW. That's another helpful precedent.

Would you recommend I wait to hear from the council before taking another further action and would you expect them to reply (or are they obliged to reply) within the 14 day period?
EDW
QUOTE (CSW86 @ Fri, 15 Feb 2013 - 00:15) *
Thank you EDW. That's another helpful precedent.

Would you recommend I wait to hear from the council before taking another further action and would you expect them to reply (or are they obliged to reply) within the 14 day period?



Up to you.


The wording about not paying if you want to appeal is a 'live' issue here.

If you get towed you have to pay to get released.

We will pursue this.
Hippocrates
I would advise to wait for their reply to see what they say. They are one of the London Councils who, apparently, according to Inside Out programme, have obtained authorisation. Still on I Player.
CSW86
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Fri, 15 Feb 2013 - 01:52) *
I would advise to wait for their reply to see what they say. They are one of the London Councils who, apparently, according to Inside Out programme, have obtained authorisation. Still on I Player.


Yes, I've seen the authorisation: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3521.pdf. And most of the suspension signs I have seen in and around Hammersmith of late are compliant with this. A few months ago this was not the case, and most signs I saw were complete bodge-jobs. Maybe someone took notice? Or maybe they used up their supply of old non-compliant signs. Either way I think they have become accutely aware of this issue.
CSW86
Well, I still haven't heard from the council regarding my request and I need to get my informal appeal in pretty soon. Would you have any suggestions regarding the wording for my appeal below?

I have a resident's permit and parked my vehicle in a resident's parking space. When I parked on the evening of Sunday 9 February 2013, there were no suspension signs near my car. The evidence provided by the CEO does not show my vehicle together with a suspension sign in the same shot and nor does it even show a suspension sign. I have requested additional details from the council regarding the suspension but have not had a reply (e-mail sent 14/2/13 at 13:52) I do not know what the reason for the suspension was, nor what the timeframe was, nor which parking place was suspended. Furthermore, I did not receive any written notice that the parking place outside my residence was being suspended. Therefore, I submit that the contravention did not occur.

Thanks.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (CSW86 @ Fri, 22 Feb 2013 - 09:22) *
Well, I still haven't heard from the council regarding my request and I need to get my informal appeal in pretty soon. Would you have any suggestions regarding the wording for my appeal below?

I have a resident's permit and parked my vehicle in a resident's parking space. When I parked on the evening of Sunday 9 February 2013, there were no suspension signs near my car. The evidence provided by the CEO does not show my vehicle together with a suspension sign in the same shot and nor does it even show a suspension sign. I have requested additional details from the council regarding the suspension but have not had a reply (e-mail sent 14/2/13 at 13:52) I do not know what the reason for the suspension was, nor what the timeframe was, nor which parking place was suspended. Furthermore, I did not receive any written notice that the parking place outside my residence was being suspended. Therefore, I submit that the contravention did not occur.

Thanks.




There was no 'Sunday 9 February 2013'?!

I would add in the PATAS case numbers of the successful appeals already posted in replies above. But really there's not that much of a rush because the discount 14 days 're-offer' thing is not relevant to you if you want to win this. And you do have a case. But it will be rejected at first challenge stage anyway - you have 28 days counting the day of the PCN as 'day one' (so count on 27 days only - and that's your deadline for this first stage informal challenge).

It's all a game to Councils and you need to know that the discount will be long gone by the time you'll probably win this in the end!
Observation1
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M



You work for a Council don't you? Not sure why you are here because unlike Clark Kent, where's the value or help in your posts? In fact I cannot even understand what point you are trying to make.
Observation1
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M



You work for a Council don't you? Not sure why you are here because unlike Clark Kent, where's the value or help in your posts? In fact I cannot even understand what point you are trying to make.


Actually I do NOT!
Think of me as 'free information and a friend'. Leave it as that!
If you probe too far I'll never respond again to anything here again!
I do however know what I'm talking about so rather thant the inuendos listen to me! cool.gif
Many people post here for unexusable reasons or will you deny that?
M

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M



You work for a Council don't you? Not sure why you are here because unlike Clark Kent, where's the value or help in your posts? In fact I cannot even understand what point you are trying to make.


Actually I do NOT!
Think of me as 'free information and a friend'. Leave it as that!
If you probe too far I'll never respond again to anything here again!
I do however know what I'm talking about so rather than the inuendos listen to me! cool.gif
Many people post here for unexusable reasons or do you deny that?
Did I detect an undertone of a compliment there at all 'Miss SchoolRun Mum' rather than some sort of narcism or pedantic reply?!
M
Incandescent
You do seem remarkably sympathetic, (biased even), to the councils, one has to ask why, because Pepipoo has the following on the Home page: -

Our Mission

To reveal to the ordinary UK motorist, clearly and concisely, how the government, police and judicial system deal with allegations of motoring offences in real life, and to provide the information motorists need to defend themselves.

So please keep that in mind when posting.
hcandersen
Back to facts.
The council will re-offer the discount if a challenge is submitted within the 14-day discount period, it says this in the PCN and so conjecture isn't necessary or helpful.
The 14-day period ends today.
You have a legal entitlement to the re-offered discount because the council have committed to this (nothing to do with parking, it's a matter of administrative law and the nature of councils).
IMO, your suggested challenge is too expansive.
Dear Sir,
Re: PCN No. ************* served on vehicle registration no. ******* on **********.
I have looked at the photos on your website, as informed in the PCN, but these do not show any suspension signs in the vicinity of the car and I am therefore at a loss to understand why the PCN was served. In my opinion no contravention occurred or has been proved and I am challenging the penalty charge on this basis.


IMO, when the car was parked and in what circumstances aren't the issue: you do not have to disprove, the council have to prove on the balance of probabilities. IMO, reasonable doubt exists in this case!
clark_kent
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M



You work for a Council don't you? Not sure why you are here because unlike Clark Kent, where's the value or help in your posts?


I'm actually self employed! ohmy.gif
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M


This doesn't apply to the CEO who appeared in the Parking Mad programme before the Chief Adjudicator.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 11:08) *
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2013 - 04:36) *
Hmm, so they are charging you £65 for the relocation and decided not to remove the vehicle to a pound which would have been a further £200. I'm sorry but if you appeal the council will not be harsh on the time element of 14 days AFAIK as seems to have been mentioned dispropotianally by others.
All councils are not as nasty and harsh, believe me. When you appeal if it happens again ask them their policy on this. On the 'before' images where's the photograph looking the other way, probably the one with the suspension notice on it - bright yellow it'll be? CEO's are quite adept of taking good images as they are all taught in their training.
M



You work for a Council don't you? Not sure why you are here because unlike Clark Kent, where's the value or help in your posts?


I'm actually self employed! ohmy.gif



Sorry, and good for you, better than actually being employed by a Council! Your posts are always supported by background information - unlike Observation1 who posts a bomb here and there for us to defuse.
EDW
has the CEO notebook and the hand-held computer print-out arrived yet?

if not chase them.
CSW86
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 10:01) *
Back to facts.
The council will re-offer the discount if a challenge is submitted within the 14-day discount period, it says this in the PCN and so conjecture isn't necessary or helpful.
The 14-day period ends today.
You have a legal entitlement to the re-offered discount because the council have committed to this (nothing to do with parking, it's a matter of administrative law and the nature of councils).
IMO, your suggested challenge is too expansive.
Dear Sir,
Re: PCN No. ************* served on vehicle registration no. ******* on **********.
I have looked at the photos on your website, as informed in the PCN, but these do not show any suspension signs in the vicinity of the car and I am therefore at a loss to understand why the PCN was served. In my opinion no contravention occurred or has been proved and I am challenging the penalty charge on this basis.


IMO, when the car was parked and in what circumstances aren't the issue: you do not have to disprove, the council have to prove on the balance of probabilities. IMO, reasonable doubt exists in this case!

Thanks hcandersen. I ended up sending my challenge before I saw your advice, but I don't think it will make a considerable difference. And, I was never in doubt that I would be re-offered the discount, so I'm not sure where Observation1 got that impression from.

QUOTE (EDW @ Sun, 24 Feb 2013 - 15:23) *
has the CEO notebook and the hand-held computer print-out arrived yet?

if not chase them.


No - thank you for reminding me. I will chase and let you know the outcome.

I imagine I'll hear from them in a couple of weeks, so will be sure to keep you all up to date. Thanks for the help so far.
CSW86
Just to provide an update, I recently received a letter informing me that my informal appeal was successful.

Thanks, once again, for all of your help.
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