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bedders81
Hi all,

In early November 2012 I was involved in a collision with an off-duty police officer (I was driving, he was cycling). I have now been issued with a letter stating that I may have driven without due care and attention, and inviting me to attend a driver awareness course as an alternative to possible proceedings in the Magistrates' Court. I do not believe I committed an offence, and I am wondering two things: a) how likely is it that I would be found guilty in court, and b) did the police follow the correct procedure in my case (and does this matter). I would be extremely grateful for any help.

On the morning of 6th November 2012, at 6.30am, I left the house to go to the gym (as I do many times per week). At that time it was pitch black, i.e. night conditions. I approached the following T-junction in 2nd gear, slowing to 12-15mph:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=cb6+3ex&am...133.73,,0,12.51

I looked both ways coming up to the T-junction and satisfied myself that there were no hazards around, so I did not stop and I turned left into the main road. As I joined the main road I heard a shout and felt a collision and realised that I had collided with a cyclist. I immediately stopped and got out to see if he was alright. He appeared unhurt, was very angry, and his first words were along the lines of "I have to say to you, anything you say may be used against you, because I am a police officer and I am going to report you for driving without undue care and attention". At that point my main concern was establishing if he was okay and if we needed to call an ambulance. Eventually after a few minutes we established that he was unhurt, his bike was undamaged, and my car had a scuff on the wing mirror. We exchanged details and he advised me to report myself to the local police station.

I drove to the police station as soon as it opened (later that morning) and spoke to an officer at reception. I gave him my account of what happened, which he appeared to write on the back of a piece of scrap paper. I asked what would happen next and he said "PC X (the officer I collided with) will get in touch with you". This struck me as odd since, being involved in the collision, I would have thought there would be a conflict of interest in him handling this case.

I heard nothing after that until I received the letter in the post on Friday 18th January. I am now unsure about my best course of action. I do not believe that I am guilty of careless driving. I definitely remember looking both ways. Although the officer was wearing a high-viz jacket and had his bike light on, I maintain that it is hard to see cyclists in the dark, and that the angle at which I approached the T-junction (and the position of the cyclist as I approached it) might have made it hard for me to see his light - and my headlights may not have shone on him either. To me this is just an unfortunate accident where we were both unlucky. I also feel that if I had collided with a civilian, the outcome may have been different.

Also, I am uncomfortable with the procedure that has been used up to this point:
- Should an impartial police officer have been called to the scene of the collision?
- Should my informal chat with the officer at reception have been some kind of more formal statement? Should I have signed something? (I don't recall signing anything)

I am extremely grateful for any advice/opinions about what I should do.

Thank you very much.
roadrunner 163
Odd that the officer involved happens to be dealing but not a barr to anything.

To be honest your account suggests a straightforward careless driving offense so a course is the best option. It seems you looked but failed to see, failed to give way and collided with a vulnerable road user. i presume damage or injury was caused. Nothing to suggest the cyclist has contributed to this incident.
glasgow_bhoy
Afraid to say it but thats a case of driving without due care and attention at the very least- if he had lights and a high-vis on, and you pulled out infront of him, you must have missed him, which would put you as being the person at fault.

I'd take the course if I were you, as in court your gonna finish up with points and a fine.

Had you collided with a civvy theres every chance things could have been worse- i.e. might not have reacted to you pulling out and could have been injured more etc- in which case the punishment could be heavier. However if's and but's are not gonna help here.

southpaw82
Is the junction controlled by a give way or stop sign? To be honest, it sounds like a slam dunk due care to me. You pulled out of a minor road and collided with other traffic.
bedders81
Thank you all for your quick replies. Yes, the junction had a "give way" sign.

After researching today, I agree it seems likely that the law will see it as a clear careless driving case. However, <small rant> it frustrates me that I would be automatically considered guilty because I didn't see the cyclist. As far as I am concerned, seeing cyclists in the dark is often difficult and the human eye (and brain) aren't perfect. Accidents can happen even if a driver takes the actions of an average competent driver, and it seems unfair to brand these people criminals. And I am unhappy with how the police have handled this case, even though they may not have contravened any regulations (maybe I'll complain). <rant over>

Anyway, thank you again - I will opt for the course (a hit of £190) to draw a line under this and hopefully learn something useful.
captain swoop
If you think you aren't guilty you can decline the course and take it to court.
The Rookie
QUOTE (bedders81 @ Sun, 20 Jan 2013 - 18:30) *
I agree it seems likely that the law will see it as a clear careless driving case.

Forget the law, it sounds entirely sensible and logical, some poor cyclist was cycling along a road minding their own business and you pulled out in front of him such that he hit you, hardly his fault as from all you say he'd taken reasonable precaustions and you failed to see him.

As a cyclist and a driver I'm well aware that motorists look for cars, when they don't see one they pull out without realising they haven't looked for cyclists (if that make sense).
mrh3369
Without wishing to sound patronising you may find the course of benefit as an average competent driver really should have spotted a cyclist with lights on a wearing a high viz so a bit of a refresher course just might help. As others have said if this went to court and using your own account a conviction would be highly likely.
z__C
QUOTE (bedders81 @ Sun, 20 Jan 2013 - 17:41) *
Also, I am uncomfortable with the procedure that has been used up to this point:
- Should an impartial police officer have been called to the scene of the collision?
.


Not required unless a collision report is needed. An impartial police officer would normally review evidence and make a decision normally that is the sgt or collisions unit.
sgtdixie
Looking at the GSV of the junction you had a perfect view. There is no hope of anything but a guilty verdict and you have provided no mitigation. Just accept you drove carelessly, do the course and take in what is said.

As far as a complaint goes you have nothing to complain about. You committed the offence and the victim placed himself on duty at the point he identified himself as an officer and cautioned you. Whilst I was never in favour of officers investigating their own incidents there is nothing to stop him doing so. The course is proportionate and would be the decision made had I been his Sgt.

southpaw82
He placed himself on duty? Really? Why would he need to?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 20 Jan 2013 - 20:16) *
He placed himself on duty? Really? Why would he need to?


Sp

I think you will find that current PSD guidance to Police officers is that where they identify themselves as Police officers at an incident when off duty they are considered to have placed themselves on duty. That is certainly the position in my old force and in several others when the discipline regs changed a few years ago..

No need to but that is what current internal rules dictate. Perhaps some other cops can say whether other forces follow that guidance.
southpaw82
IIRC, it was for insurance purposes or some such. My belief is that it's a hangover from the bad old days when powers varied depending on being on or off duty and armbands were worn.
sgtdixie
Afraid it's nothing to do with that. It all revolves around the new discpline regs and conduct issues rather than any police powers. It is designed to stop cops abusing their authority as an officer for personal reasons. Mainly relates to where a cop perhaps has a dispute with a neighbour or in a pub and pulls out the warrant card. For an incident such as this in my force the officer would have been expected to do a full ONB entry and indeed can put an overtime form in as well.
southpaw82
I don't see how being deemed to be "on duty" prevents any of that but whatever...
fedup2
QUOTE (bedders81 @ Sun, 20 Jan 2013 - 17:41) *
Hi all,

In early November 2012 I was involved in a collision with an off-duty police officer (I was driving, he was cycling). I have now been issued with a letter stating that I may have driven without due care and attention, and inviting me to attend a driver awareness course as an alternative to possible proceedings in the Magistrates' Court. I do not believe I committed an offence, and I am wondering two things: a) how likely is it that I would be found guilty in court, and b) did the police follow the correct procedure in my case (and does this matter). I would be extremely grateful for any help.

On the morning of 6th November 2012, at 6.30am, I left the house to go to the gym (as I do many times per week). At that time it was pitch black, i.e. night conditions. I approached the following T-junction in 2nd gear, slowing to 12-15mph:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=cb6+3ex&am...133.73,,0,12.51

I looked both ways coming up to the T-junction and satisfied myself that there were no hazards around, so I did not stop and I turned left into the main road. As I joined the main road I heard a shout and felt a collision and realised that I had collided with a cyclist. I immediately stopped and got out to see if he was alright. He appeared unhurt, was very angry, and his first words were along the lines of "I have to say to you, anything you say may be used against you, because I am a police officer and I am going to report you for driving without undue care and attention". At that point my main concern was establishing if he was okay and if we needed to call an ambulance. Eventually after a few minutes we established that he was unhurt, his bike was undamaged, and my car had a scuff on the wing mirror. We exchanged details and he advised me to report myself to the local police station.

I drove to the police station as soon as it opened (later that morning) and spoke to an officer at reception. I gave him my account of what happened, which he appeared to write on the back of a piece of scrap paper. I asked what would happen next and he said "PC X (the officer I collided with) will get in touch with you". This struck me as odd since, being involved in the collision, I would have thought there would be a conflict of interest in him handling this case.

I heard nothing after that until I received the letter in the post on Friday 18th January. I am now unsure about my best course of action. I do not believe that I am guilty of careless driving. I definitely remember looking both ways. Although the officer was wearing a high-viz jacket and had his bike light on, I maintain that it is hard to see cyclists in the dark, and that the angle at which I approached the T-junction (and the position of the cyclist as I approached it) might have made it hard for me to see his light - and my headlights may not have shone on him either. To me this is just an unfortunate accident where we were both unlucky. I also feel that if I had collided with a civilian, the outcome may have been different.

Also, I am uncomfortable with the procedure that has been used up to this point:
- Should an impartial police officer have been called to the scene of the collision?
- Should my informal chat with the officer at reception have been some kind of more formal statement? Should I have signed something? (I don't recall signing anything)

I am extremely grateful for any advice/opinions about what I should do.

Thank you very much.


So you run into a cyclist wearing a high viz and showing lights knocking him off but think you woulnt benefit from the course?



I actually think you were very lucky in both him not being more seriously hurt and ending up being offered a course.If it was me id be jumping up and down on my way to that course.

Theres not many people skittle a police officer and effectively get away with it!

If you do try your luck in court please keep us updated wont you?


you say you think that had this been a civillian it would have been a different outcome?What exactly did you want,thanking?
glasgow_bhoy
£190 for a course is nothing compared to what you would have if he'd been a civvy who was 'at it' and decided he had a sore neck and a broken bike... your insurance would increase by more than £190 a year for at least 3 years, and had there been a serious injury the course probs wouldn't have been offered.

Nobody here would deny accidents happen, cos they do. But generally only where a drivers standard of driving falls below that expected of him/her when at the control of a vehicle.

Regards putting in a complaint. Total waste of time. But if thats how you want your taxes spent then so be it.
kommando
That left turn is at quite an angle by the time it gets to the give way line with a fair turn of the head needed to see properly, the junction design allows a fast entry to the major road but the head turn required means you need to slow down. Take the course and go on an advanced driving course or ride a bike for a day and see how the other half lives.
m7891
QUOTE (bedders81 @ Sun, 20 Jan 2013 - 18:30) *
However, <small rant> it frustrates me that I would be automatically considered guilty because I didn't see the cyclist.

That means you are guilty, though.

As someone who both drives and cycles, I know how difficult it is from both sides. When driving, yes some cyclists can be difficult to see (putting aside the high-vis and lights) - but knowing that is what makes me keep well-alert for them, especially when there's a cycle lane. When cycling, it annoys me (to put it lightly) when other road users, which includes other cyclists and even pedestrians, either deliberately ignore me or genuinely don't see me. I once cycled into the side of a car that turned right in front of me. His first words - "I didn't see you". My (adrenaline-fuelled) response: "Well get off the f-ing road then". He was a bus driver too...

As others have suggested, I'd bite their hand off for the course but don't just see it as a box-ticking exercise. Try and take something from it that helps with your observations to avoid a repeat, which could end up worse.
Gan
Got a lesson in observation recently while approaching a roundabout

A motorcyclist was just at that speed and angle where he stayed hidden behind a windscreen pillar.

Fortunately he flicked into vision briefly and I became aware of him.
A useful reminder not to keep my head still while approaching junctions and roundabouts
mynamegoesinhere
Regardless of whether you opt for court or course, what's really important is that you learn from this.

It's your responsibility to check that the road is clear before joining it. You didn't do so adequately.

Please - from now on when approaching a give way, slow down, check twice or more, and move your head in case someone is obscured by the pillars on your car.

Consider yourself, and him, lucky that he wasn't seriously hurt.

I can't understand why you think you weren't at fault.
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