Hello all!

I recently received a Bus Lane PCN for Kilburn High Road, London (Northbound). There is CCTV footage of me driving along the lane. It was at 11:41 on a Saturday. My understanding was that the lane was not 'active' except on Mon - Fri. I have since checked and in fact the lane is in fact active 10am - 7pm on Sat.

I am considering my options for appeal.

My main consideration is that the Bus Lane is not enforceable as it is not correctly signposted/marked. I would be very grateful to any thoughts.

here is an image of the road layout and observations I have made:

Layout and Details



...and a photo of the deteriorated quality of diagram 1048 ("Bus Lane"):

Diagram 1048



A photo speaks a thousand words!!!

My questions:

1 - Should diagram 1048 AND diagram 959 be used parallel to the start of the bus lane's thick white line? They are approximately 20m apart. Is that being used "in conjunction with"?

2 - The diagram 1048 is fairly worn; the 'L' of LANE is almost gone completely. The 'B' is 2/3 missing. The road surface is deformed as a result of the bus' weight. Is this an argument?

3 - If the start of the bus lane that shows the restriction of including Sat 10am-7pm is missing diagram 958 and the lead-in exceeds 1:10, are the following 'sections' enforceable even if they each have a diagram 959?

4 - Can I argue that the whole section of road leading up to where I was seen has differing restrictions and is not correctly signed causing confusion?

Has anyone successfully contested a Bus Lane PCN on any of these issues?

I'd be very grateful for any thoughts, experiences and advice.

Thank you very much!

CF

(Edited to 'embed' images)

You will get some responses when we can see a picture of the PCN (all pages) please. At the moment there's nothing but links to go on, we do need pics here on the thread please.

Hi SchoolRunMum.

Here are the pages from the PCN. It took me a while to work our how to 'embed' them!





Now I have been able to embed them I'll try to edit my initial post to embed the other images.

Thanks again!

CF

You have made this too complicated.

Just do a link to GSV of the start of the bus lane, not all the others.

Hi.

What do you mean by GSV?

My main question at this stage is; if I'm seen in the third section of a bus lane, can the fact that it isn't correctly signed and marked at the beginning of section one be used to appeal?

Thanks,

CF

GSV is Google Streeet View

Go to www.google.co.uk ..click MAPS up top and put in the postcode or the street address......enlarge the map to make it easier using the + sign up top of map...Put your mouse pointer over the small yellow man up top LH of map and press the LH mouse button and drag him to the street and let go and a picture of that street will appear .....put your mouse pointer over the image and you'll see arrows appear /two or perhaps 4/ navigate to where the bus lane is using these arrows or dragging the image round until you find the place you want .. ...then click the small chain link logo somewhere on the left and a small window will appear ..click Short URL and copy and paste that URL in to your post on here ...

You should finish up with something like this
http://goo.gl/maps/x0X4J

Hi StuartBu.

Great description. Thanks!

Here is the link to the start of the section that the CCTV saw me in:

http://goo.gl/maps/ZUABE

If it's relevant, the link to the first section with the change of hours to include Saturday:

http://goo.gl/maps/77jzd

Unfortunately, as you'll see, the lane in question is mostly hidden from Google by traffic but I'm sure it will reveal enough info.

CF

We need contemporaneous pictures of all signs. Nice to see a PCN with the correct number of grounds on it; however, it mis-states the 14 day reduced payment period on page 2 by use of "within" thus adding another day. Page 1 states it correctly but, how are you to know which period they mean!?

(d)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted

Signage:- 2110011685 http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

Interesting PCN


Big holes to exploit.

http://goo.gl/maps/ZUABE

Incorrect sign! Should be 958:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_102

http://goo.gl/maps/77jzd

No 958 sign. E-mail for the Traffic Management order in pdf with all schedules and amendments.

Wow! Interesting points from you all and certainly good 'ammunition'!




I completely agree with you there. This is definitive! The start of this bus lane and the subsequent change of the hours to include Saturdays does NOT have a 958 sign.

Does that therefore make all further 'sections' after each junction unenforceable even though they have signs 959?




Here I'd appreciate other opinions. In my view this 'section' after the junction is a continuation of the earlier bus lane and therefore does not require a sign 958. However, I personally feel that the sign 959 is not being used 'in conjunction with' the BUS LANE diagram on the road nor the actual start of the lane's thick white line. Is this a valid point?

Also, is the fact that the 'L' in 'BUS LANE' is virtually non-existent mean that the lane is not enforceable?

I will definitely E-mail for the Traffic Management order in pdf with all schedules and amendments!!!

Thanks to you all for your replies so far but look forward to your thoughts on the details I have mentioned here.

CF

continuation point requires 959.

Has the OP read and digested the whole of my advice?

Following up on what you say I have found this:

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 - 15.10
"The sign to diagram 959 is a regulatory sign and should be placed at the start of the lane, i.e. where the continuous line to diagram 1049 begins. It should be repeated just beyond each side road, other than one-way roads leading away from the major road on the opposite side to the bus lane."

Technically the sign 959 is 'just beyond' the side road I suppose. All I can see that is specefic is that 959 has to be used 'in conjunction with' line 1049 and diagram 1048 "BUS LANE"... which actually isn't very specific at all! It seems to me things are a little vague when it comet to signage around the 'continuation' of a bus lane after a side road.

I have found this too:

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 - 15.12
"Where there is more than one bus lane along a particular length of road or within the same geographical area, the times of operation should be consistent, where possible, to avoid driver confusion."

In this 'length of road' and 'geographical area' there are three different times of operation signed within only 100m or so... with no apparent reason why it would not be possible for them all to be the same.

CF

I think I will let you guys get on with it. Good luck.

The TSM is only for guidance. It is not the law.

The test is 'do the signs and lines convey the restriction adequately'?

Yes, and thank you for it.



Could you please elaborate why? This section is a 'continuation' of the bus lane after a junction. My understanding is that only a sign 959 is required to "be repeated just beyond each side road". I would love to see something that defines otherwise. I see your point about sign 958 being for a bus lane "ahead" which, in some ways this is. However, it is not the start of a new bus lane ahead but the continuation of one. Is that not a factor?




Completely agree! This, in my view is an absolute 'gotcha', assuming that the fact that this is the beginning of the bus lane and I had since passed two junctions and two sign 958s!

...Email for the Traffic Management Order has been sent.

On another note. I have seen the CCTV video of the incident. No signs 959, 958 or 1048 is shown in the video. Is this required for it to be usable evidence? I know that the requirements for CCTV evidence is more relaxed in London.

I would appreciate your opinion/clarification on the above though.

Thank you.

CF

http://goo.gl/maps/ZUABE

How is this this a continuation?

The traffic Order will state when the lane starts but its seems to be here

http://goo.gl/maps/OJYP9

Hi Hippocrates.

Again, another good question! I initially saw it as the start of a bus lane too. However, having read up and studied the road, the previous section of bus lane does not have an "End Of Bus Lane" sign I therefore presume that it is a continuation after a junction. This is one key aspect that I can't see any definition for; the difference between 'start of' and 'continuation of'. In this case, the fact that there is a crossing after the junction seems to have caused then to continue the bus lane rather far from the junction and therefore sign 959.

CF

Ladies and gentleman, the signage is fecked. Good night.

The first one ends here

http://goo.gl/maps/wgr8P

Yep! Completely agree.

The second one (http://goo.gl/maps/OJYP9) is definitely missing sign 958.

My biggest case is confusion I think. The previous lane, the end of which you found, has no "BUS LANE" markings and no lead-in lines.

How are drivers, watching for buses, cyclists, pedestrians and the usual London traffic and distractions, supposed to have a clue as to what's going on here?!

Can't wait to see the Traffic Order!



...and YEP!!! Thanks for your time. Good night.

CF

If you appeal you will have to demonstrate the signs are inadequate, the fact that a 95x is missing etc. does not mean
an automatic win. They will look at the CCTV and see when you entered the lane (if shown) and that is what counts.

You will have to decide if you want to gamble - your money, your choice.

In the footage the camera is already 'looking' to the north. It does not show where or how I entered the lane. I come into camera shot from the bottom edge, already in the lane and am shown continuing along it until I exit at the end approximately 30m further up. There is no queue of traffic out of the lane to my right and there is one car ahead of me in the lane too. At the end of the lane, 40m ahead, the right lane is right turn only. The left lane is left turn and ahead. I continued ahead hence why I was using the left lane... in the misunderstanding that it was not active on a Saturday as signed earlier along the road.

Would such footage go against my favour?

I need to see the vid.

Please see PM.

Thanks. CF

Case Reference: 2100308010
Declarant: Mr Robert Ellison Tyler
Authority: Kingston Upon Thames
VRM: YK03UGV
PCN: KT55188309
Contravention Date: 19 Sep 2009
Contravention Time: 10:23
Contravention Location: Eden Street
Penalty Amount: £120.00
Contravention: Being in a bus lane
Referral Date: 24 Jun 2010
Adjudicator: Teresa Brennan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons: Mr Tyler raises numerous issues in relation to this appeal. One of these is that he states that adequate and proper signage was not in place at the time of this alleged contravention.

Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.

That's very useful! Thanks EDW. I suppose prior to a hearing I will get to see all the evidence they intend to use. If they show no evidence of which signs I did or didn't pass, I should NOT try to defend my appeal by showing lots of detailed maps and photographs of all the confusing markings and signage leading up to that area?!!

Is there any way to search previous appeals by key words: Bus Lane, Brent, Allowed, for example?

First make your reps.

Think about appeal later.

Wait for the Enf. notice to arrive.

Then come back here.

Actually, that case was won because one of the cameras was not working. The OP is friend of mine. The adjudicator needs to be convinced that you passed the signs and that the signs in place on the day were correct. Also, there are many other cases in which Kingston do not provide such unequivocal evidence such as the adjudicator needs.

Case Reference: 2120347875
Appellant: Mr Barry Retter
Authority: Merton
VRM: GJ08OJU
PCN: MT41008278
Contravention Date: 08 Feb 2012
Contravention Time: 09:25
Contravention Location: London Road Mitcham
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Being in a bus lane
Decision Date: 11 Oct 2012
Adjudicator: Teresa Brennan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons: Mr Retter attended today.

One of the issues he raises is that his car was not in a bus lane. He states that he drove the car from the outside to the nearside lane after the sign on a post indicating the end of the bus lane. The local authority states that the end of bus lane sign is after and not before the bus lane and that the appellant therefore drove his car in the bus lane.

I have seen the CCTV footage provided by the local authority. However the footage does not contain any evidence of the bus lane signs. In those circumstances I cannot be satisfied that the appellant's car was in a properly signed bus lane.

I allow this appeal.

Quite. As I said, one of the cameras was not working which is why they produced library pictures. We are not arguing about the principle.

Hi EDW.

What exactly do you mean by this? It was my understanding that I need to wait for the Enforcement Notice to arrive and I then make a formal appeal. Do I have to do something before the Enforcement Notice arrives?

On another note, I have emailed them twice now with no response. I was way from home until 13 January and have emailed them evidence that I was away asking for the 14/28 day period to take this into account. This was after advice from them over the phone. I have also asked for a copy of the Traffic Order; still no response.

Thanks again!

CF

you can make informal reps now but waste of time so wait for Enf Notice
and make formal reps.

Hi EDW. I had a feeling that would be the case!

Good to know I have time. I travel a lot for work; hence being away when the PCN was sent, and have to travel again this week for a few weeks. I am going to collect a batch of photographs of the markings and signage and continue to request the Traffic Order.

I will begin to compile my appeal letter in anticipation. At the moment I am going to take the following argument:

- I entered the Bus Lane just prior to the Bus Stop (out of shot of the CCTV) on the understanding that it was not active on a Saturday after 10 am (as per Mon to Fri).

- I moved into the left lane (Bus Lane) in anticipation of the junction ahead which is right turn only from the right lane. The car ahead did the same adding to my misunderstanding the Bus Lane was not active.

- On returning to the road to understand my misinterpretation after receipt of the PCN I have seen that there are many aspects to the Bus Lane signage and mankings allong the section of road leading up to that section that do not follow legislation or guidelines causing confusion. Etc...

Is such an argument, the confusing signs leading to my misunderstanding, grounds for an appeal?

CF

I disagree. What is to be lost by making informal reps.? What is to be gained? Still, I'll keep my consistent advice to myself.

Double post