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Adauk2010
Hi Everyone

I got a PCN stuck to my windscreen on 06/10/2012 for contravention code 27: Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

On the same day I wrote to them the following letter:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Penalty Charge Notice: EF43524970
I refer to the above penalty charge notice that I found on my car.

Could you please send me by post to my above mentioned address such images from the record of the contravention produced by the approved device which resulted in the Penalty Charge Notice that in your opinion established the contravention?

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Yours sincerely,


I heard nothing for a few weeks so I sent them emails as I was getting worried (maybe they got lost in the post or something) just asking them for an update as I hadn't heard anything. The emails were sent on the following dates:

19/10/12
29/10/12
08/11/12
14/11/12
26/11/12
10/12/12

On 13/12/2012 I received the below email:

Dear Mrs xxxxx

Traffic Management Act 2004 and London Local Authorities Act 2000
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) Number: EF43524970
Date of Contravention: 06/10/2012
Location of Contravention: SIDNEY AVENUE N13

NOTICE OF REJECTION OF FORMAL REPRESENTATIONS

Thank you for your representations about the above Penalty Charge Notice. I would inform that there a reply was sent by NSL (our contractors) on 12/10/2012, however this was returned as unserved mail, therefore the Notice progressed to the next stage.

We have considered everything you said in your representations but do not feel that you have made grounds for cancelling the Penalty Charge Notice or the Notice to Owner. This letter is issued as a formal Notice of Rejection of Representations.

I have noted the contents of your representations however, on 06/10/2012 at 14:48hrs vehicle registration number X702XXX was seen by Civil Enforcement Officer parked adjacent to a dropped footway in Sidney Avenue N13. Please see photographic evidence below.

Dropped footways enables pedestrians, particularly the disabled and people with prams, to safely cross the road. Your vehicle was parked across the dropped kerb which meant that pedestrians pushing prams or wheelchairs were unable to benefit from the kerb being lowered and forced to cross the road at a less safe place. There is no requirement for signage to denote a dropped footway, as the lowered kerb itself is sufficient.

We have found no reason to waive the above Notice. However, in view of the circumstances, we are prepared to accept £55.00 as full settlement of the Charge if payment is received within 14 days from the date of service of this letter.





THE BENEFIT OF THEDISCOUNT IS ONLY AVAILABLE IF PAYMENT IS RECEIVED WITHIN THE SPECIFIED TIMESCALE. This payment will close the Penalty Charge Notice and should not be made if you wish to continue with your appeal.


HOW TO PAY

1. By Telephone
Call 0845 805 5263 (24hr payment line) using one of the following debit or credit cards - MASTERCARD, VISA, SWITCH, DELTA giving details of Card Number, PCN number and amount.
2. On Line
https://parking.enfield.nslservers.co.uk
3. By Post
A cheque or postal order payable to the London Borough of Enfield should be sent to NSL Ltd, P.O. Box 65732 First Floor, London N13 9BL. All cheques and postal orders must have the PCN number and vehicle registration number written on the back. Please send a stamped self-addressed envelope if you would like a receipt. Any other form of payment, including cash, will not be accepted. Post dated cheques will not be accepted.
4. In Person
Call at the Parking Shop, Crown Road Vehicle Park, Crown Road, Enfield, EN1 1TH (24hrs per day). If you pay by cash it is very important to get a receipt, in case there is any query about your payment.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PAYMENT IF YOU WANT TO CHALLENGE THIS PCN.

Alternatively, if you want to appeal further, please read the guidance notes attached to the appeal form enclosed with this letter, then complete the form and send it to the Parking & Traffic Appeals Service, P. O. Box 279, Chertsey KT16 6BU - please do not send the appeal form to us. The adjudicator will consider your appeal and make a final decision.

Should your appeal be rejected by the Parking & Traffic Appeals Service, the payment required will be the statutory rate of £110.00

Please note that an adjudicator cannot normally award costs against you but may do so if he considers that you have acted frivolously, vexatiously or wholly unreasonably. Equally, the adjudicator may award costs against an Authority that he considers has acted frivolously, vexatiously or wholly unreasonably.

If you do not pay or appeal before the end of the 28 day period beginning with the date of service of the Notice of Rejection, the penalty charge will increase by 50% to £165.00 and we may serve a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount. At that stage you may have missed the opportunity to appeal If the increased penalty charge is not then paid within a further 14 days of receipt, the Local Authority may apply to the County Court to recover the charge as if it were a debt payable under a County Court Order.

If you require further information, please telephone our help line on 020 8379 6410.

Yours sincerely




Signed on behalf of
Head of Parking Services



NSL LIMITED DISCLAIMER

The contents of this e-mail are for use by the intended addressee(s) only and may contain legally privileged material and confidential information that is exempt from disclosure by law.

Please note that if you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail by you is strictly prohibited and you must not read, use or take any action in reliance on it.

If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail or by telephoning 0844 870 7070 and then permanently delete it from your system.

Please note that neither NSL Limited nor the sender accepts any responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan any attachments.

NSL Limited
Registered office - 4th Floor, Westgate House, Westgate, London W5 1YY.
Registered in England and Wales Registered number - 06033060


Just to clarify, the PCN was issued by Enfield Council but I believe they outsource to NSL.

I then replied to them on the 17/12/2012 with the following email:

Dear Sirs


Thank you for finally replying to me in regards to the above PCN.

1 I did not make a formal representation, so I’m confused as to why you have sent this reply.

2 Again, I did not make any formal representation. How did NSL reply and why was it returned?

3 How could you have considered everything, when there was nothing to consider as no formal representation was made?

4 “Please see photographic evidence below.” Where is the photographic evidence? That is all I wanted in the first place.

Also I would like to add that I have tried to contact you on numerous occasions without success. I have contacted you ion the following dates:

06/10/12
19/10/12
29/10/12
08/11/12
14/11/12
26/11/12
10/12/12

Can someone please supply me with what I originally asked for in the letter dated 6th Oct 2012.


Yours,



Since then Enfield Council has written to me (08/01/2013) basically sending me the evidence I originally requested and giving me the option to pay the fine at the reduced fee.


My question is: should I pay the fine or not? I seem to remember reading something on this website about a similar issue and that if the council take a request for further evidence as representation then they loose the case.

Sorry to drag it on so long and I thank you in advance for your time & help.
glasgow_bhoy
Have you recieved anything through the proper paper post?
hcandersen
You must post original docs, please do not transpose because you're bound to miss something or type something wrongly, or both. For example, we don't know when the discount period expires and therefore whether time is really pressing.

We also do not know what you sent by way of emails - so let's see them, or an example if they're exactly the same.

And the PCN, of course.

HCA

«THÖMÅS®©™»
Scan and post them is what they are saying.
Hippocrates
they are supposed/must respond by first class post, every single document. Pending seeing your documents, if they have not treated your requests as merely requests, there are cases for that, too.
Adauk2010
Hi Guys

Thank you so much for your replies. Please find attached emails (in pdf format) and the last letter received by Enfield Council (by post).

Let me know if you require any further details.


SchoolRunMum
You were well across the dropped kerb then...shame because Enfield sometimes issue these and even tow cars away when there's no contravention at all, such as this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=70114

Is the DK for the driveway of a single residence premises? (not a shared driveway). Is it your own driveway? If not, has the owner given you permission to park in front of their DK?
Has the Owner of the residence actually asked the council to enforce there, do you know?
Hippocrates
We need PCN page two. Meanwhile, penultimate paragraph of letter mis-states the law by the use of will.

Cases:- 2110072817, 2100649871, 2110415753, 2120021652, 2120448511.

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/
Chaseman
Surely OP has a case here for procedural impropriety? Don't argue the facts of the original "offence", just say they have completely messed up the procedure for responding to informal challenges, no formal appeal was made therefore there can be no NoR, you can see no reason why the original reply was returned, they never replied to your e-mails. They should cancel the ticket - and use these words - for a procedural impropriety.
Incandescent
The pics show the contravention is proven, basically. You could argue on procedural impropriety, but IMHO this would have to be at adjudication. If OP is prepared to pay the full amount of the PCN, then by all means appeal. At the moment, the discounted amount is offered.
Enceladus
You have received an email which purports to be a "Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations".
Was the text in-line to the email? Or was it supplied as an attached file.

More importantly did you ever receive any PATAS appeal forms? Were there any attached to the email?
A "Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations" is required to be served by post, have appeal forms enclosed and to contain specified information.

You also seem to have the country's most efficient council. The PCN was served on Sat the 6th Oct. You wrote to them on the same day. I assume you mean email? Anyway it would be normal for several days to elapse, sometimes weeks, before they get around to opening the post, printing off the faxes or reading the emails. Yet they claimed to have responded on Thursday the 12th Oct. That does not pass my credibility test.

The letter dated Tues the 8th of Jan seems to be the only letter sent by Royal Mail. The date stamp on the envelope is Thurs 10th Jan.
And the letter implies that a Notice to Owner has not yet been issued. Despite the fact that the Council has purported to issue a Notice of Rejection against the representations that you allegedly made against the non existent Notice to Owner. (Or did you get a Notice to Owner?).

Taken together then there has been a series of breakdowns in the process. Surely a procedural impropriety?
hcandersen
Can we start from the beginning.
The driver was served with a PCN on 6 Oct. 2010.You were the driver.You challenged the PCN as the driver.A PCN has a limited life and as regards the enforcement of penalty charges - it is the Notice to Owner which counts as it's owner liability. Whether the driver is the owner is not the issue: the owner can only enter this process by being served with a Notice to Owner.
When, if ever, did you receive a Notice to Owner?
I cannot find any reference to a NTO in the correspondence.
You must establish the date of issue of the NTO which will be presumed served 2 working days later even if you did not receive it assuming that it was addressed to the person whose details are held by DVLA as Registered Keeper. Any correspondence received by the council prior to the date of service cannot, on the face of it, be assumed by the council to be formal reps.
Your posts also refer to a letter which you sent - where is this?
You still have time to clarify these points.
HCA

Adauk2010
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 17 Jan 2013 - 20:37) *
You were well across the dropped kerb then...shame because Enfield sometimes issue these and even tow cars away when there's no contravention at all, such as this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=70114

Is the DK for the driveway of a single residence premises? (not a shared driveway). Is it your own driveway? If not, has the owner given you permission to park in front of their DK?
Has the Owner of the residence actually asked the council to enforce there, do you know?


The drive is not mine and I don't know the person who lives there, but as you can see from the pictures there isn't much difference from the DK and the normal kerb. I had to go forward because of the tree to the side wouldn't let me get out of the car but I made sure I was blocking anyone in. It was a wide driveway and they could have easily gotten out / in.

QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 17 Jan 2013 - 21:52) *
We need PCN page two. Meanwhile, penultimate paragraph of letter mis-states the law by the use of will.

Cases:- 2110072817, 2100649871, 2110415753, 2120021652, 2120448511.

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/


If you are referring to the back of the actual PCN that was stuck to the windscreen then unfortunately I can't attach it as I don't have the PCN with me and I'm at work but will try to attach over the weekend.

QUOTE (Chaseman @ Thu, 17 Jan 2013 - 22:36) *
Surely OP has a case here for procedural impropriety? Don't argue the facts of the original "offence", just say they have completely messed up the procedure for responding to informal challenges, no formal appeal was made therefore there can be no NoR, you can see no reason why the original reply was returned, they never replied to your e-mails. They should cancel the ticket - and use these words - for a procedural impropriety.


I agree and that is one of the reasons I'm on this forum as I don't really have a leg to stand re: the original offence, although I did not really block anyone in the driveway.


QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 17 Jan 2013 - 23:09) *
The pics show the contravention is proven, basically. You could argue on procedural impropriety, but IMHO this would have to be at adjudication. If OP is prepared to pay the full amount of the PCN, then by all means appeal. At the moment, the discounted amount is offered.


Confused :S

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 18 Jan 2013 - 03:51) *
You have received an email which purports to be a "Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations".
Was the text in-line to the email? Or was it supplied as an attached file.

More importantly did you ever receive any PATAS appeal forms? Were there any attached to the email?
A "Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations" is required to be served by post, have appeal forms enclosed and to contain specified information.

You also seem to have the country's most efficient council. The PCN was served on Sat the 6th Oct. You wrote to them on the same day. I assume you mean email? Anyway it would be normal for several days to elapse, sometimes weeks, before they get around to opening the post, printing off the faxes or reading the emails. Yet they claimed to have responded on Thursday the 12th Oct. That does not pass my credibility test.

The letter dated Tues the 8th of Jan seems to be the only letter sent by Royal Mail. The date stamp on the envelope is Thurs 10th Jan.
And the letter implies that a Notice to Owner has not yet been issued. Despite the fact that the Council has purported to issue a Notice of Rejection against the representations that you allegedly made against the non existent Notice to Owner. (Or did you get a Notice to Owner?).

Taken together then there has been a series of breakdowns in the process. Surely a procedural impropriety?


The NOR came as text in the email not as an attached letter, (a copy of which I attached as pdf print out) also I underlined the following, and I quote "We have considered everything you said in your representations but do not feel that you have made grounds for cancelling the Penalty Charge Notice or the Notice to Owner."

I wrote the letter on the 6th but I don't think I managed to post it until the 7th, which makes it mission impossible for them to have received it and replied to me by the 12th.

Yes, the 8th Jan letter is the only one I received by post, however they do claim to have sent me the letter before but apparently it got returned to them by royal mail.
NSL sent the NOR and then when I replied to that email I cc Enfield Council and they seem to take over as they must have clocked that NSL are screwing up.

NB: Their phone lines were always, constantly busy hence me using email to communicate with them.



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 18 Jan 2013 - 07:18) *
Can we start from the beginning.
The driver was served with a PCN on 6 Oct. 2010.You were the driver.You challenged the PCN as the driver.A PCN has a limited life and as regards the enforcement of penalty charges - it is the Notice to Owner which counts as it's owner liability. Whether the driver is the owner is not the issue: the owner can only enter this process by being served with a Notice to Owner.
When, if ever, did you receive a Notice to Owner?
I cannot find any reference to a NTO in the correspondence.
You must establish the date of issue of the NTO which will be presumed served 2 working days later even if you did not receive it assuming that it was addressed to the person whose details are held by DVLA as Registered Keeper. Any correspondence received by the council prior to the date of service cannot, on the face of it, be assumed by the council to be formal reps.
Your posts also refer to a letter which you sent - where is this?
You still have time to clarify these points.
HCA


I did not receive a NTO. Letter attached in earlier post.


In my opinion they definitely screwed up the procedures and they seem to be replying to people without even looking at what they are being sent / asked for.

So far I'm not sure what you guys are suggesting I should do but obviously I would like to pay the reduced amount and with my calculations I should pay this by Tuesday, correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again thank you for all your replies.
Adauk2010
Any more thoughts on this guys? Deadline is here sad.gif

Thank you
hcandersen
As I understand it you have received an email (not letter, please confirm) from the council which purports to be a Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations. In addition, you did not receive a Notice to Owner.
A NOR may only be served by post;You did not receive a NTO.
You must appeal to PATAS. IMO you are sure to win on the basis of procedural impropriety. Appealing to PATAS involves two phases: registering the appeal; submitting further information once you've received confirmation that your appeal's been registered. You do phase 1 now. Should take 5 minutes.
Read the form and insert "Personal hearing" where requested. Appeal on grounds of "Contravention did not occur". In box 5 state that you were served with a Notice of Rejection of formal representations despite not having been served with a Notice to Owner or making formal representations. In addition, the NOR was served by email which is contrary to the mandatory requirements of para. 3 of the General regs.
That's it.
HCA
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 21 Jan 2013 - 10:33) *
As I understand it you have received an email (not letter, please confirm) from the council which purports to be a Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations. In addition, you did not receive a Notice to Owner.
A NOR may only be served by post;You did not receive a NTO.
You must appeal to PATAS. IMO you are sure to win on the basis of procedural impropriety. Appealing to PATAS involves two phases: registering the appeal; submitting further information once you've received confirmation that your appeal's been registered. You do phase 1 now. Should take 5 minutes.
Read the form and insert "Personal hearing" where requested. Appeal on grounds of "Contravention did not occur". In box 5 state that you were served with a Notice of Rejection of formal representations despite not having been served with a Notice to Owner or making formal representations. In addition, the NOR was served by email which is contrary to the mandatory requirements of para. 3 of the General regs.
That's it.
HCA

AIUI he can't submit an appeal to PATAS. He has no forms.

The letter tells him to challenge the NTO he has not had sight of.

So maybe let the Council progress to Order for Recovery and then submit the Witness Statement.
and maybe
Ring PATAS (purely to get the matter on record with them). He will get the stock answer which will be to contact the Council. Then write to the Council referencing their emailed NOR (Notice of Rejection.) Point that that there are no appeal forms attached to the email. Ask them to send some. And then wait for the NOR etc.
hcandersen
If OP does not have forms, which I accept is possible given that the NOR was served by email, then they should contact PATAS as you suggest. Tell them you've received a NOR by email but that you've not received the appeals registration forms. You've waited until mid Jan to see if they would arrive, but none has been received. They may tell you to contact the council, in which case all you do is to do that and only that. Do not discuss the case, just ask for the forms if that is what PATAS say.
Do not re-engage the council in this process, they've blown it.
HCA
Adauk2010
Can they claim that they made a mistake and re-started the procedures by sending me the letter in January 2013 (by post) with what I originally requested in October 2012? They definitely screwed up with the whole procedures but I'm worried that they will say that although we screwed up we still gave you the opportunity to pay the reduced fee and appeal the contravention.

I just replied to the email 13/12/2012 which is the NOR email asking for the appeal forms to PATAS. I will be letting you know when they reply.

I don't want to miss the deadline to pay the reduced rate if I'm not going to get anywhere with them.

Once again thank you for you time and advice.
Enceladus
QUOTE (Adauk2010 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2013 - 11:39) *
Can they claim that they made a mistake and re-started the procedures by sending me the letter in January 2013 (by post) with what I originally requested in October 2012? They definitely screwed up with the whole procedures but I'm worried that they will say that although we screwed up we still gave you the opportunity to pay the reduced fee and appeal the contravention.

I just replied to the email 13/12/2012 which is the NOR email asking for the appeal forms to PATAS. I will be letting you know when they reply.

I don't want to miss the deadline to pay the reduced rate if I'm not going to get anywhere with them.

Once again thank you for you time and advice.

If they send appeal forms (highly unlikely) then submit them.
Otherwise wait for a Charge Certificate and the subsequent Order for Recovery. Complete and return the Witness Statement that will arrive with the OFR. This goes to the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) at Northampton County Court. Tick one box only, the one that says "I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice (Parking contravention)."

The council will have to send a fresh Notice to Owner to continue to enforce. And you can appeal in the normal manner.

There are no guarantees. But I would have thought your chances are pretty good with PATAS. This sort of messing around is not supposed to happen.
Adauk2010
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Mon, 21 Jan 2013 - 12:34) *
QUOTE (Adauk2010 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2013 - 11:39) *
Can they claim that they made a mistake and re-started the procedures by sending me the letter in January 2013 (by post) with what I originally requested in October 2012? They definitely screwed up with the whole procedures but I'm worried that they will say that although we screwed up we still gave you the opportunity to pay the reduced fee and appeal the contravention.

I just replied to the email 13/12/2012 which is the NOR email asking for the appeal forms to PATAS. I will be letting you know when they reply.

I don't want to miss the deadline to pay the reduced rate if I'm not going to get anywhere with them.

Once again thank you for you time and advice.

If they send appeal forms (highly unlikely) then submit them.
Otherwise wait for a Charge Certificate and the subsequent Order for Recovery. Complete and return the Witness Statement that will arrive with the OFR. This goes to the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) at Northampton County Court. Tick one box only, the one that says "I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice (Parking contravention)."

The council will have to send a fresh Notice to Owner to continue to enforce. And you can appeal in the normal manner.

There are no guarantees. But I would have thought your chances are pretty good with PATAS. This sort of messing around is not supposed to happen.



Thank you so much Enceladus, and thank you to the people of Pepipoo.

This is a bit scary, it seems these days you have to have many professions, be it a lawyer, accountant, doctor etc... or else people / companies will walk all over you.
hcandersen
Sorry, but I can't agree.
From what you've posted you are likely to be found to be in contravention and as I understand it the strength of your case now is the council's procedural impropriety. If you allow the council to re-issue the NTO, then IMO this grossly weakens your case.
IMO, you must press the council by following up your request and if the PATAS forms are not sent get back to PATAS.
HCA
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 22 Jan 2013 - 16:42) *
Sorry, but I can't agree.
From what you've posted you are likely to be found to be in contravention and as I understand it the strength of your case now is the council's procedural impropriety. If you allow the council to re-issue the NTO, then IMO this grossly weakens your case.
IMO, you must press the council by following up your request and if the PATAS forms are not sent get back to PATAS.
HCA

Well you are correct, to an extent.
The problem is that the Council seemed to have clocked what has happened and have advised him to submit representations against the "Notice".

I did not advise him to submit reps against the Notice. Which in any event he has not received.
I did advise him to submit the PATAS forms if indeed he can obtain them from the Council. I also expressed a view that it is unlikely they will be forthcoming.
PATAS will not provide the forms. They will refer the OP back to the Council. There is only so much running around that a person can do and ultimately the Adjudicator will want to see that the OP has done what a reasonable person would do.

They only way to break the impasse will be to submit a WS against the OFR. And there is only one ground that will be available to him.

And I also advised the OP that it is not certain the if the NTO was re-issued that he would win.
Hippocrates
I,too, feel this needs to get to PATAS now and would advise the OP to tell the council to send the forms.
Enceladus
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 22 Jan 2013 - 17:36) *
I,too, feel this needs to get to PATAS now and would advise the OP to tell the council to send the forms.

He did ask the Council!

How is he going to submit to PATAS if the Council don't send the forms?

hcandersen
If it comes to it, let PATAS deal with it. They can contact the council direct, but the alternative is to risk losing the winning cards.
HCA
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 22 Jan 2013 - 17:41) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 22 Jan 2013 - 17:36) *
I,too, feel this needs to get to PATAS now and would advise the OP to tell the council to send the forms.

He did ask the Council!

How is he going to submit to PATAS if the Council don't send the forms?


By referring them to the offending NOR and demanding them.
Adauk2010
Hi guys

Since I decided to send a reply to the NOR email asking for the PATAS forms on the 21/01/2013 I had heard nothing until yesterday when I received the Charge Certificate by post.

I am now really worried and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Enceladus
QUOTE (Adauk2010 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2013 - 11:44) *
Hi guys

Since I decided to send a reply to the NOR email asking for the PATAS forms on the 21/01/2013 I had heard nothing until yesterday when I received the Charge Certificate by post.

I am now really worried and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

I stand by my advice in post #20 above.
You cannot challenge a Charge Certificate. So please wait for the next stage which is an Order for Recovery. This will increase the amount outstanding by £7.00. Complete and submit the Witness Statement which will be attached. Tick one box only. The one that says "I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice (Parking contravention)."

The TEC will cancel the OFR and the Charge Certificate. The Council will have to issue a new Notice to Owner or drop the case. That is the official procedure for somebody in your situation.

Now I know that it would be better if you could avoid that and go direct to PATAS, as your success factors will be (considerably) better. Some members have been vocal about it. This is because the clock is reset and PATAS may not consider the preceding improprieties as applicable to the new NTO. However in the absence of appeal forms that will be difficult as you have now discovered for yourself.

It is clearly stated on the PATAS website that no forms = no appeal = contact the Council and obtain the forms.

So I suggest you draft a letter to PATAS and put a case to them why they should hear your case "out of process". Post it up here for scrutiny. There is an outside chance they will intervene in the interests of justice, given a persuasive case. And given that Council seems to have stepped outside standard procedure. But don't hold your breath.

If others have a better idea than please say, but quickly.
Adauk2010
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 13 Feb 2013 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (Adauk2010 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2013 - 11:44) *
Hi guys

Since I decided to send a reply to the NOR email asking for the PATAS forms on the 21/01/2013 I had heard nothing until yesterday when I received the Charge Certificate by post.

I am now really worried and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

I stand by my advice in post #20 above.
You cannot challenge a Charge Certificate. So please wait for the next stage which is an Order for Recovery. This will increase the amount outstanding by £7.00. Complete and attach the Witness Statement which will be attached. Tick one box only. The one that says "I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice (Parking contravention)."

The TEC will cancel the OFR and the Charge Certificate. The Council will have to issue a new Notice to Owner or drop the case. That is the official procedure for somebody in your situation.

Now I know that it would be better if you could avoid that and go direct to PATAS, as your success factors will be (considerably) better. Some members have been vocal about it. This is because the clock is reset and PATAS may not consider the preceding improprieties as applicable to the new NTO. However in the absence of appeal forms that will be difficult as you have now discovered for yourself.

It is clearly stated on the PATAS website that no forms = no appeal = contact the Council and obtain the forms.

So I suggest you draft a letter to PATAS and put a case to them why they should hear your case "out of process". Post it up here for scrutiny. There is an outside chance they will intervene in the interests of justice, given a persuasive case. And given that Council seems to have stepped outside standard procedure. But don't hold your breath.

If others have a better idea than please say, but quickly.


Thank you for your quick reply.
When do I need to write to PATAS, now or when I receive Order for recovery?

And yes, if you guys have any other suggestions please let me know...Thank you
Enceladus
QUOTE (Adauk2010 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2013 - 13:51) *
Thank you for your quick reply.
When do I need to write to PATAS, now or when I receive Order for recovery?

And yes, if you guys have any other suggestions please let me know...Thank you


You need to write to PATAS PDQ.

It is your case and you need to understand it. So please post up a draft letter addressed to PATAS that is intended to persuade them to exceptionally hear an appeal out side of the standard process. It is a long shot, very long.

This is because you would have a much better case now than you will have if the case is reset to NTO. Members have expressed a view that you need to the case to PATAS now. However nobody has suggested a practical means of doing so.
Adauk2010
I have now received this sad.gif scared
Hippocrates
You have been advised to wait for the Order for Recovery. Calma. When you get it, post it up and further advice will follow.
interlog
For information, I have recently submitted 3 Appeals to the PATAS without the respective PATAS Application forms (they were not given to me by the Council) and they were accepted by the PATAS. I attached to the covering letter explaining that I never received the PATAS forms the respective Notice of Rejections as proof that I was at the correct stage of the proceedings.

The practice manual says this:

QUOTE
3.3 In every case where an EA serves a Notice of Rejection, the correct Notice of Appeal form should be enclosed. Failure to do so may inhibit the motorist’s access to the right to appeal to the Tribunal. It may also lead to delay in the motorist submitting their appeal to the Tribunal, particularly if, as has sometimes been the case, the EA advises them to contact the EA for a form if they wish to appeal. If this causes the appeal to be submitted later than the 28 days allowed, the Appellant will be required to explain why the Notice of Appeal was filed late and the Adjudicator will have to spend time unnecessarily in having to consider whether the Notice of Appeal should be accepted out of time. If, on the other hand, the motorist chooses to submit an appeal by letter rather than on the promulgated form, as they are entitled to do, this will be detrimental to the efficient administration of the appeal and may lead to delay in the Tribunal’s staff identifying that the letter is an appeal. It is accordingly in the interests of the Tribunal, the public and EAs that the appropriate Notice of Appeal form is despatched with the Notice of Rejection.
hcandersen
OP - please listen to the advice.

You will win at adjudication and you get to adjudication (unless the council drop out earlier) by waiting for the next letter which is an Order for Recovery (OfR). This includes a form called a Witness Statement which you complete by ticking one box "I did not receive the Notice to Owner" and sending to the address given within the time allowed. Given that all you do is tick a box and sign the form you should send it on the same day you receive to the address given - not the council.

Just to be sure, post it at your post office and get a proof of posting (the cashier will give this to you FOC - it's standard).

The council will be ordered to cancel the OfR and the CC (so forget about these) and the other letter is toast.

The council may re-serve the NTO, but so what? Their management of this issue is a gross procedural impropriety and they will lose, should the matter get to adj.

The only relevant facts IMO are:

NTO issued on 13 November 2012. (this can be found in the Charge Cert. post #27).
They served a Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations by email on 13 Dec. This was unlawful as a NOR may only be served by post. PI #1.
As you hadn't been served with the NTO (but the council wouldn't necessarily know this) they might have been entitled to assume that you'd made reps if you communicated with them after the date of service of the NTO (deemed to be 15 Nov). So, what did you send?
You've posted emails all of which refer to events pre-NTO and which are clearly requests for info and follow-ups on pre-NTO correspondence. The council had no lawful basis to consider these as formal reps and therefore no lawful power to serve a NOR. PI #2

There might be others.

If the council were foolish enough to re-serve the NTO, you would make formal reps under the heading Procedural Impropriety as above.

The council would either accept these in which case the matter is over at that stage, or reject them, in which case you go to PATAS and win there.

Do not concern yourself with the penalty, please.

The only choice for the council is whether to give in now or be embarrassed at PATAS.

Gan
What happened between 13th February, when you were advised to contact PATAS PDQ, and yestereday when you received the reminder ?

The reminder is nothing to worry about
You want the debt registered because it's the only way that the system allows you to get the Charge Certificate cancelled
Hippocrates
That reminder letter is just a nasty attempt at intimidation which, I believe, the gorgeous adjudicator at PATAS had words to say about the same at a hearing last week.
Adauk2010
Hi Guys

UPDATE

I waited for Order for Recovery letter and completed the witness statement (on 18/04/13) ticking the box "I did not receive the Notice to Owner..." which cancelled it.

On 20/04/13 I received the Notification that the Order for recovery was revoked.

On 25/04/13 I received the Notice to Owner letter from the council.

So now I will be challenging this for procedural impropriety but wanted some more thoughts on what I should write on the challenge form.

Thank you in advance.
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