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Lion-O
Hola amigos,

Received myself a lovely little PCN from Islington council for driving up Henshall St off Balls Pond Road. Totally didn't see any of the signs, and I swear I've done it a dozen times before.

Nonetheless, I see it is quite a common one on the forums however hoven't managed to find a definitive point to put across my case for appeal, which I'm sure will be rejected by the council!

Please see attached PCN and help where possible? Thanks in advance!








EDW
You need to post the video and get street photos, gSv is out of date.


http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=51.54...amp;FORM=LMLTCC
Lion-O
Sure thing, will do that, should hopefully have something in the next couple of days.
Hippocrates
The PCN fetters to one ground only while the legislation refers to "one or other grounds" meaning one or more grounds.

PATAS: 2120030405

Ground C clearly limits to theft, too. PATAS: 2110212199

They also use the word "will" re sending a Charge Certificate, which is also wrong.

PATAS: 2110072817, 2100649871, 2110415753, 2120021652, 2120448511

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/
Lion-O
Wow, Thanks Hippocrates, that's great. I'll definitely put those points in my appeal.

Appreciate it!
Hippocrates
Sock it to 'em. Post up first and then let's see what their response is. I would not hand it to them on a plate yet, though, and would omit the case numbers but include the arguments. Basically, the PCN is non-compliant and unenforceable.
Lion-O
PIctures as requested. Although I nicked these from another post and they are for approaching from the left, whereas I approached the turn from the right, the signs are exactly the same, no difference (except of course the signs indicate no right turn instead of left!). I had a real good look when I was there over the weekend, however it's the most awkward place to stop, so couldn't!

Let me know your thoughts?




EDW
get your own photos.
Lion-O
Nice.
EDW
QUOTE (Lion-O @ Tue, 4 Dec 2012 - 15:23) *
Nice.




Is that supposed to be a joke?

If you want to be a smartarse you are on your own.
Lion-O
Wasn't being a joker or smartarse, just was responding to your very brief post.

Would have been good if you could have perhaps expanded a little on why those photos weren't good enough and I should get my own.

Sorry to have offended you.
EDW
You came from the other direction, so get photos of the way you came.

You cannot go to patas without recent evidence.
Lion-O
Ok, great. Thanks. I will definitely do that. Thanks for your help EDW.
EDW
I want to see photos of both the 'no right turn signs' on the approach, I want to see near and far shots of the 'no motor vehicles signs'. I want to see the road paint markings on the start of Henshall street.

Clear photos, near and far taken on clear day, not raining.

I think you can beat this.


You may as well make your reps to the council now. They probably wont cancel but it's a good idea to do it now.


Send them this email:

Grounds of appeal
The contravention did not occur
The CCTV pictures on the PCN do not show the relevant vehicle passing the front of a no motor vehicles sign or any sign.
Therefore the contravention is not adequately described.
Please cancel the PCN.



When they refuse we prepare for patas.
Lion-O
Right, I'm probably gonna get this email prepped tonight,

Should I include the stuff that Hippocrates mentioned earlier in this thread?

EDW
throw the lot at that them, let rip.
Lion-O
great stuff, will prep and post up before I send!
Lion-O
Hey all, please see my email before I hit send on it:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to appeal the PCN you issued number xxxxxxxxx on xxxxx

The grounds of appeal are that the contravention did not occur.

The cctv pictures on the PCN do not show the relevant vehicle passing the front of a no motor vehicles sign, or any sign, therefore the contravention is not adequately described.

I would also like to point out that the PCN fetters to only one ground, whilst the legislation refers to "one or other grounds."

Ground C also clearly limits to theft. Finally, the PCN uses the word "will" when referring to sending a Charge Certificate, which is also wrong.

Based on the points above, I would request the PCN to be cancelled.

Kind Regards.


ALSO, I went on the site to get pictures and video, as suggested by EDW, and there is nothing on there. I have taken a screenshot.

Let me know what you think? Thanks again.

EDW
fine
bama
QUOTE
I would like to appeal the PCN you issued number xxxxxxxxx on xxxxx

these are the representations for PCN xxxxxxx
there are three heads.
1
The CCTV pictures on the PCN do not show the relevant vehicle passing the front of a no motor vehicles sign, or any sign, therefore the contravention is not adequately described.

2
The PCN fetters to only one ground, whilst the legislation refers to "one or other grounds."

3
Ground C also clearly limits to theft. Finally, the PCN uses the word "will" when referring to sending a Charge Certificate, which is also wrong.



QUOTE
Based on the points above, I would request the PCN to be cancelled.

Because of the points above, the PCN should be cancelled.
Lion-O
Great, Thanks for that Bama,

am about to hit send now!

Lion-O
Having sent the reps, here is the reply... please note I had sent these on behalf of my mum, to whom the car is registered and the notice was served...

Thank you for your email regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which was recently received at this office.

As you were not the person upon whom the PCN was served, the law does not allow us to treat your challenge as formal representations and you do not have the right to appeal to the independent adjudicators. I appreciate that you state you have their permission, however, we require written confirmation of this from the registered keeper of the vehicle.

The person to whom we sent the PCN is responsible for the penalty charge, and it is for that person to make formal representations against paying the charge, within the time specified on the PCN, should they wish to.

However, I have reviewed this case in light of your comments.

The PCN was issued because the driver of the vehicle failed to comply with a sign indicating a prohibition on motor vehicles.

There are two 'no motor vehicles' signs at the entrance to Henshall Street from Balls Pond Road. In addition, following feedback received from motorists, 'no left / right turn' signs have been put in place on Balls Pond Road to highlight the restriction to approaching drivers.

After investigating the matter I am satisfied that the signage described above was in place on the date that the contravention occurred and that it is clear and compliant with legislation. I have included photographic evidence of it below. It is the responsibility of the driver to observe and comply with all road traffic signs.

I can also confirm that our legal department have approved all of our statutory documents as being legally compliant. I am therefore upholding the charge.

Your choices now are to either to pay the penalty charge or allow the matter to progress against the person to whom we sent the Penalty Charge Notice.

If no action is taken we will issue a Charge Certificate to that person advising that the right to appeal has expired and that the charge has increased to £195.00.

I have decided that, if you wish to settle the matter, we can accept the discounted amount of £65.00 provided we receive that before 04 January 2013. Please bear in mind that on that date the charge will revert to £130.00 before increasing to £195.00 when the Charge Certificate is sent out.

You can make credit and debit card payment on - 020 7527 2000 - at any time. You can also pay on line at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the above address. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number).

I have been out of the country for the last week, so just got back to this. I took some pictures before I went away so will upload them later tonight after I have done my crimbo shopping!

EDW
So now you fill in patas form, post them up here scrubbed.

Fill in form.

Contravention did not occur

Grounds of appeal - 'to follow'.

Decide on postal appeal or personal hearing .

Mother to sign patas form and to give you letter saying you act on her behalf.

Do not delay, get the appeal registered.

Send it Royal Mail 2nd class, get proof of posting from post office (free).
Lion-O
I forgot to mention before that I haven't been sent any PATAS forms by the council as yet and that response was via email as opposed to by post!
EDW
Your mother had better email the reps. or you may get a CC.
Lion-O
Sorry for being a dummy, but do you mean email reps to PATAS?
EDW
no email the council, it seems they have not treated your email as reps. maybe because you are not the RK.
Lion-O
No problem, will get mother dearest to do it!
EDW
she should say that you will now act on her behalf.
Lion-O
Right,

So my mum got a CC the other day... is there any way to appeal this, beacuse according to the email reply I got, I thought "I have decided that, if you wish to settle the matter, we can accept the discounted amount of £65.00 provided we receive that before 04 January 2013" meant that I had until that date to get reps in, which my mum did as based on the advice here?

It's all very confusing!

Do I have any grounds for anything?
EDW
QUOTE (Lion-O @ Mon, 4 Feb 2013 - 14:01) *
Right,

So my mum got a CC the other day... is there any way to appeal this, beacuse according to the email reply I got, I thought "I have decided that, if you wish to settle the matter, we can accept the discounted amount of £65.00 provided we receive that before 04 January 2013" meant that I had until that date to get reps in, which my mum did as based on the advice here?

It's all very confusing!

Do I have any grounds for anything?



You had better get in touch with them asap.

I told you you mother should email the reps. Did you do that or not?

They should cancel the CC is she did.
Lion-O
Hey EDW,

She did send the reps via email on 4th Jan, I'm going to send them an email and see what they say!

Will post draft here and reply once I receive it!

Thanks
Lion-O
I was thinking perhaps something along these lines:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you regarding PCN xxxxxxxxx

I emailed representations in order to appeal against this PCN and you replied to me on 17th December stating that it had to be the owner of the vehicle who sent in representations and that you had decided that we should either pay a reduced rate by 4th Jan or send in representations by then.

My mother, who is the owner of the vehicle, sent you representations by the 4th Jan, yet you have still issued her with a Charge Certificate.

I do not believe this is to be very just, considering you had extended the period.

Your input is highly appreciated....
EDW
looks fine
Hippocrates
Show the C.C., please.
Lion-O
CC is here:



Hippocrates
Enforcement of charge certificate

6(1)Where a charge certificate has been served on any person and the increased penalty charge provided for in the certificate is not paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the certificate is served, the enforcing authority may, if a county court so orders, recover the increased charge as if it were payable under a county court order.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted
SchoolRunMum
The email should be in your mothers's name not yours. She should be querying why SHE got no response to her reps. You could type it of course and use your email addy if you want but it needs to be in her name at the bottom.
Lion-O
Sent the email,

Will post a response or any other documents I receive from them up here.

Thanks!
Lion-O
I received a response to my email today, I have posted below, any thoughts/input would be appreciated, although I'm guessing that the next step is just to send a copy of the reps again?:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which was recently received at this office. I have to inform you that now a Charge Certificate has been issued, the time allowed for making representations against the penalty charge has passed. Despite that fact, I have looked in to the case and decided that the original PCN was issued correctly and that there are no reasons which compel me to cancel it. I have also checked that we have sent out our legal documentation properly and on time and am satisfied that that is the case.

The PCN was issued because your vehicle was identified as failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle. On this occasion, the PCN was issued as your vehicle was seen using a street which had been prohibited to all motor vehicles.

You have stated in your e-mail of 7 February 2013 that you submitted formal representations against the PCN. However, having reviewed the case fully, I would advise that we did not receive your correspondence and as such, the case progressed and the Charge Certificate was issued.

Based on the evidence which has been submitted by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) on this occasion, I am satisfied that the contravention did occur and the PCN was correctly issued. However, if you are able to provide a copy of your representations, I would be happy to consider them.

I have decided to place this case on hold until 1 March 2013 to allow you enough time to supply a copy of your representations. Alternatively, should you decide to pay the penalty charge, then a payment of £65.00 will be accepted in settlement if we receive it before that date. However, if a copy of your representations is not received by 1 March 2013 or payment of the penalty charge made, the case will be allowed to progress in the manner described below.

Our next stage is to apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court to recover the charge as if it were payable under a county court order. We will then seek to pass the matter to bailiffs who we will ask to recover the debt. Please note that registration at the court and action by bailiffs will involve additional charges which will be added to the payment due from yourself.

If we take that course of action, we will send you a copy of the court's order which will provide you with details of how you may respond.

You can make credit and debit card payment on - 020 7527 2000 - at any time. You can also pay on line at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the above address. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number).

EDW
Based on the evidence which has been submitted by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) on this occasion, I am satisfied that the contravention did occur and the PCN was correctly issued. However, if you are able to provide a copy of your representations, I would be happy to consider them



That nullifies the CC.


Lion-O
QUOTE (EDW @ Fri, 15 Feb 2013 - 16:53) *
Based on the evidence which has been submitted by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) on this occasion, I am satisfied that the contravention did occur and the PCN was correctly issued. However, if you are able to provide a copy of your representations, I would be happy to consider them



That nullifies the CC.


Excellent! I should still provide a copy though?
EDW
QUOTE (Lion-O @ Fri, 15 Feb 2013 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (EDW @ Fri, 15 Feb 2013 - 16:53) *
Based on the evidence which has been submitted by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) on this occasion, I am satisfied that the contravention did occur and the PCN was correctly issued. However, if you are able to provide a copy of your representations, I would be happy to consider them



That nullifies the CC.


Excellent! I should still provide a copy though?



So re-send the original reps and and get the owner to make formal reps. by email as follows:




The CCTV images do not show the face of a sign, therefore the contravention is not proved.

I rely upon the following PATAS case:

Case Reference: 2120646763
Appellant: Mr Meresse Mekonnen
Authority: Islington
VRM: WN06UGK
PCN: IS27683978
Contravention Date: 01 Sep 2012
Contravention Time: 09:38
Contravention Location: Henshall Street N1
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Decision Date: 04 Feb 2013
Adjudicator: Mark Eldridge
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: Mr. Solomon represented the Appellant (who did not himself attend) today. The Authority was not represented.

Having viewed the CCTV footage, there is no doubt the appellant's vehicle made the turn described by the Authority. The issue is adequacy of signage. I have considered the site plan and still photographs provided by the Authority. On that evidence, whilst I am satisfied the signage may be adequate for vehicle proposing to turn left from Balls Pond Road into Henshall Street, I am not so satisfied for those turning right. This vehicle plainly made a right hand turn.

The site map shows only the signs at the entrance prohibiting cars and motorcycles. That is too late - the turn is well under way before they can be seen. There are no signs prohibiting turns on the map. The still photographs show one or more signs but not their location in relation to the signage. The Authority does have to show the signage was adequate and compliant and on this evidence I find they have not.

I allow the Appeal.
Lion-O
Hi All,

A quick update and more advice seeking on this matter (which I had thought had been put to bed)

My mother received a bailiff letter last month for this PCN for the amount of 215 and has just emailed livid as se received another one today for almost 500.

Having gone back over the case and trail of correspondence, in the midst of moving house etc I had forgotten to send the last email I was supposed to send and it is still sitting in my drafts... BIG MISTAKE!

Having said that, I asked my mother to confirm that she had received nothing else in the way of correspondence on this matter, and she confirmed she hadn't or else she would have notified me...

My question is, if she hadn't received the chance to pay at the court stage or whatever the next stage the council would have taken, is there anything that could be done at this stage to stop the bailiff process and bring the fee down, or something similar?

Any advice is appreciated, as £500 is no small amount of money!

Thanks
Incandescent
This is what happens when you don't follow the process, I'm afraid. Turning this round will be difficult, so best thing is to contact: -

www.bailffadviceonline.co.uk

You could post up last document received from council, plus your draft email that wasn't sent. You should have got a Charge Certificate, then an Order for Recovery. You may have to try making an OOT declaration to a judge which costs £80
Lion-O
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 17 Aug 2013 - 09:37) *
This is what happens when you don't follow the process, I'm afraid. Turning this round will be difficult, so best thing is to contact: -

www.bailffadviceonline.co.uk

You could post up last document received from council, plus your draft email that wasn't sent. You should have got a Charge Certificate, then an Order for Recovery. You may have to try making an OOT declaration to a judge which costs £80


Last document received from the council was CC, there was no other documents received from them after that point.

The draft which wasn't sent was as follows, and is basically a repeat version of the one sent to them before, which they said they hadn't received:

Thanks for your response. Here is a copy of the representations I sent to lancingislingtonpcnteam@rrd.com on 4th Jan 2013:

PCN Number: xxxxxxx
Vehicke Registration: xxxxxxx
Home address: xxxxxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam,

These are the representations for xxxxxxxx

Here are three heads:

1. The CCTV pictures on the PCN do not show the relevant vehicle passing the front of a no motor vehicles sign, or any sign, therefore the contravention is not adequately described.

2. The PCN fetters to only one ground, whilst the legislation refers to "one or other grounds."

3 . Ground C also clearly limits to theft. Finally, the PCN uses the word "will" when referring to sending a Charge Certificate, which is also wrong.

Because of the points above, the PCN should be cancelled.

Further to my original representations, I would also like to draw your attention to this recent ruling, which further shows that the PCN should be cancelled.

The CCTV images do not show the face of a sign, therefore the contravention is not proved.

I rely upon the following PATAS case:

Case Reference: 2120646763
Appellant: Mr Meresse Mekonnen
Authority: Islington
VRM: WN06UGK
PCN: IS27683978
Contravention Date: 01 Sep 2012
Contravention Time: 09:38
Contravention Location: Henshall Street N1
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Decision Date: 04 Feb 2013
Adjudicator: Mark Eldridge
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: Mr. Solomon represented the Appellant (who did not himself attend) today. The Authority was not represented.

Having viewed the CCTV footage, there is no doubt the appellant's vehicle made the turn described by the Authority. The issue is adequacy of signage. I have considered the site plan and still photographs provided by the Authority. On that evidence, whilst I am satisfied the signage may be adequate for vehicle proposing to turn left from Balls Pond Road into Henshall Street, I am not so satisfied for those turning right. This vehicle plainly made a right hand turn.

The site map shows only the signs at the entrance prohibiting cars and motorcycles. That is too late - the turn is well under way before they can be seen. There are no signs prohibiting turns on the map. The still photographs show one or more signs but not their location in relation to the signage. The Authority does have to show the signage was adequate and compliant and on this evidence I find they have not.

I allow the Appeal.


Kind Regards.

Incandescent
So the Order for Recovery did not arrive. As this is generated by TEC, I suggest you need to contact them asap to find out when it was issued and posted to you, plus what address they used. The OfR is the last stage before bailiffs. They also send a form for a Witness Statement in case you have not received certain items, however, if you never got the OfR, then clearly you cannot do this. Wait for others, as I am not really up-to-speed on the latter stages of the CPE process, but I believe you can make an Out of Time, (or some such), declaration in front of a judge. However, first is to call TEC to find out what happened to the OfR.

Lion-O
Spoke to the TEC, not a great deal of help really. The said the OFR was sent out on 26th March 2013, but said they didn't have any way of confirming that it was delivered to us. Apparently, unless they receive it back with an undelivered sticker on it from Royal Mail, they assume that you got it. Funny how an assumption like that can potentially cost you £500.

Anyway, what would you guys advise me to do next? An Out Of Time?

Please advise...
Lion-O
Hi everyone,
Please help. The bailiff visited my mither's property again today. I would like to put an immediate end to the bailiff action and don't know how to go about it. Tried calling bailiff advice online phone but it just rang out. Fees have gone up again as well.
If somebody could just chime in and help as they said they were going to visit again this evening...
Thanks
EDW
I dont see how you can stop this quickly unless you pay.

If you win your appeal you should get a full refund.





Hi All,

A quick update and more advice seeking on this matter (which I had thought had been put to bed)

My mother received a bailiff letter last month for this PCN for the amount of 215 and has just emailed livid as se received another one today for almost 500.

Having gone back over the case and trail of correspondence, in the midst of moving house etc I had forgotten to send the last email I was supposed to send and it is still sitting in my drafts... BIG MISTAKE!

Having said that, I asked my mother to confirm that she had received nothing else in the way of correspondence on this matter, and she confirmed she hadn't or else she would have notified me...

My question is, if she hadn't received the chance to pay at the court stage or whatever the next stage the council would have taken, is there anything that could be done at this stage to stop the bailiff process and bring the fee down, or something similar?

Any advice is appreciated, as £500 is no small amount of money!

Thanks
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