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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Kazz
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2012
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5103 Princess Parkway, Near to M60 Motorway, Northenden
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Driving along normally and seen the van. Did brake a little (not hard braking by any means) and noticed I was at 50 (limit 40) when I was along side the van but they've recorded me at 68mph. Pretty certain I wasn't driving that fast. My Speedo usually read 2/3 mph more than the Tomtom too..

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 21:57:29 +0000
Jlc
That alleged speed is a court summons. 6 points or a small ban.

Remember that they often measure you before you see them (up to 1km).

However, you should ask for photo's to assist in identifying the driver - you obviously know who was driving but they will probably furnish you with a shot showing the ping and distance etc. do not mention evidence as you are not entitled to any at the moment.

At the moment they are requesting the identity of the driver - failure to do so is also a 6 point offence. You have 28 days to do this and asking for a photo doesn't stop the clock.

Try this calc for an idea of the fine if found guilty:

Kazz
Hi Guys

Firstly, a big thanks in advance for anyone that can help out.

I'm pretty certain I wasn't going that fast but I can't be sure.

Also, if I do get convicted for the mentioned speed, what are the chances of going to court as opposed to a fixed penalty of 3 points/£60 fine. Or am i too far over the limit...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 13 Nov 2012 - 22:07) *
That alleged speed is a court summons. 6 points or a small ban.

Remember that they often measure you before you see them (up to 1km).

However, you should ask for photo's to assist in identifying the driver - you obviously know who was driving but they will probably furnish you with a shot showing the ping and distance etc. do not mention evidence as you are not entitled to any at the moment.

At the moment they are requesting the identity of the driver - failure to do so is also a 6 point offence. You have 28 days to do this and asking for a photo doesn't stop the clock.

Try this calc for an idea of the fine if found guilty:



I have seen the picture online and it is blurry - can't make out the drive bar a shadow on the chin. Should I ask for clearer photos?

Calculator says 6 points and a hefty fine sad.gif

Thanks for your help.
Jlc
Fixed penalties normally only offered up to 65mph - as above this is 6 points OR small ban.

As the photo is online they are unlikely to provide anything more. They don't have to provide anything but the provided photo should show a 'clean' ping and see it's your car (which is highly likely). The photo's are not used in the identification of the driver - that's your job!
Kazz
Thanks for the replies so far.

Am i right in thinking that if I fight it, and lose, I'll get 6 points and a fine.

But if I give the drivers details, the driver shall get 6 points, a fine and a possible ban?

If so, would it not be worth fighting it?

Thanks
mrh3369
It's either points or a ban not both plus a fine of course.
Logician
On what basis could you fight it? Does the photo online confirm it was your car, and the cross-hairs are aligned on a basically vertical part of it?
Jlc
This is a fightback forum but we'll also advise when 'fighting' is fruitless and costly...

The process is 2 stage. Firstly, they are asking for the identity of the driver for the alleged offence and location.

You either answer this or face a summons for 'failing to furnish' which is 6 points, ~£500 and a MS90 endorsement code which will see your insurance soar for 5 years.

After naming the driver the next stage is either a fixed penalty or court summons but as I said that speed is almost certainly going to be a summons.

Then the prosecution will present the evidence of the driver and the speed measurement by a (highly likely) calibrated and approved speed detection device. Unless you can show a procedural error, incorrect limit or detection then it's likely to be a slum dunk guilty.

Pleading not guilty will see the costs soar, guidance is £600 for such a plea on top of the fine itself and victim surcharge. Pleading guilty reduces the fine (33% discount) and limits the costs (£200).

I'm afraid they probably have you by the short and curlies. As Logician states, how are you going to fight?

I think 6 points is the most likely outcome but a ban could be considered.
Kazz
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 14 Nov 2012 - 00:10) *
On what basis could you fight it? Does the photo online confirm it was your car, and the cross-hairs are aligned on a basically vertical part of it?


I was just going to start digging around and see if I could find any loopholes...

My car has a chrome grill and it is aligned with the grill exactly where the sun has hit it? Could this have give a false reading?

I can PM you the picture?

Cheers smile.gif

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 14 Nov 2012 - 07:55) *
This is a fightback forum but we'll also advise when 'fighting' is fruitless and costly...

The process is 2 stage. Firstly, they are asking for the identity of the driver for the alleged offence and location.

You either answer this or face a summons for 'failing to furnish' which is 6 points, ~£500 and a MS90 endorsement code which will see your insurance soar for 5 years.

After naming the driver the next stage is either a fixed penalty or court summons but as I said that speed is almost certainly going to be a summons.

Then the prosecution will present the evidence of the driver and the speed measurement by a (highly likely) calibrated and approved speed detection device. Unless you can show a procedural error, incorrect limit or detection then it's likely to be a slum dunk guilty.

Pleading not guilty will see the costs soar, guidance is £600 for such a plea on top of the fine itself and victim surcharge. Pleading guilty reduces the fine (33% discount) and limits the costs (£200).

I'm afraid they probably have you by the short and curlies. As Logician states, how are you going to fight?

I think 6 points is the most likely outcome but a ban could be considered.


Thanks for that - I do need to take the kids to school etc. so I'm hoping it wouldn't be a ban.

It sounds easier just to plead guilty and take it from there with a good solicitor. I'm quite adamant I wasn't doing 68 though. I checked the speed when I seen the van and I was doing 50. I could understand up to 60 maybe as I did gently slow down but by no means did I slam the brake pedal or slow down that much. Had a 9 month old baby in the car and I'm always that extra bit cautious...

The sun on the grill to give a false speed is on my mind - could anyone advise whether this could be the reason I feel as though the speed is incorrect.

Cheers
Jlc
Sunlight doesn't affect the reading.
Kazz
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 15 Nov 2012 - 22:47) *
Sunlight doesn't affect the reading.


In that case, I think I'll just fill the NIP in, post it back and take whatever comes of it...

I'll report back with the outcome...

Thanks again for every ones help.

Cheers
Kazz
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2012
Date of the NIP: - 33 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 34 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5103 Princess Parkway, Near to M60 Motorway, Northenden
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Mum
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Borrowed my Mums car as she was too tired to drive. Got day insurance and seen the van but it was too late. They parked infront of the road from where it changed from a 40 to a 50mph

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 23:53:51 +0000

EDIT: My mum sent of the NIP and I received it under my name now. I will be sending the NIP off (confirming I was the driver) but I wanted you guys just to have a quick look over the above details and see if everything is in order (please). I'm not sure if this is the right course of action too but I don't really have any other grounds to fight on. All i have in my defence is that I didn't know the car well and I need my car for my business.

I started a new thread from my last one as I wrote that as if the NIP was under my name but it was under my mothers so she sent it off and it's just come back under my name (panicked a bit when the letter came).

Last threads here if the mods want to delete it: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=74626

Another concern is that "recorded speed" has been crossed out ("XXXXXX" over it) and it just says alleged speed. Is this ok?

I know it will more than likely be a court appearance but just wanted to run it by you guys first before I post it back so anyone with any ideas can help me out on how to take this further.

Thanks in advance.
Kaz
The Rookie
They can do what they want with the photo they make available to you.....it's a snap from a video which will still exist in unedited form anyway.
Kazz
Ahh - thanks for that. I take it they will play the video in court?

And based on the new info provided in post 12, shall I just post the form back confirming I was driver?

Cheers smile.gif
mrh3369
If you don't send it back you will be facing 6 points and a large fine for failing to furnish as well as a very nasty ms90 code on your licence which the insurance companies hate.
AntonyMMM
The video would only ever be played in court in a Not Guilty trial and even then only in rare cases.

Nothing you have said so far indicates a potential defence.
Kazz
Hi

Thanks for the replies.

Just wanted to run the new NIP past you guys before posting it back butI'll send it tomorrow and see what happens smile.gif

How long would I have to wait for a reply - I suffer with terrible stress and anxiety and just want this dealt with asap.

Thanks again for all the help.

Kaz



Kazz
<UPDATE>

Hi Guys,

It's been 6 months today since the offence took place but I've not heard anything :S

I read somewhere they have 6 months to convict me or start proceedings - is that the case in this instance?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers
Kaz
Jlc
Not out of the woods yet. They have 6 months from the offence to lay particulars with the court - they may of done this.

The court then processes and then notifies you. This could take another couple of weeks.

Fingers crossed.
Kazz
Hi buddy,

Thanks for the reply.

Checking the post daily for the last few months has been painstaking but I guess another month won't hurt...

I'll report back in a month (fingers and toes crossed nothing turns up!)

Thanks again!
The Rookie
You can contact the court nearest the offence location and ask if they have any information layed in your name.....if they say no, get name, DOB, inside leg measurement of the person as well as making a note of time and date!
Kazz
Hi Guys,

Been 7 months from the date of the original offence - is it safe to assume they won't be able to prosecute me now?

I was tempted to ring the courts but I didn't want to bring me to their attention...

Thanks again for all the help.

smile.gif
Jlc
It looks like you're in the clear... cool.gif
sgtdixie
I would check with the courts before being sure.
The Rookie
Some areas have been known to send summons out very late, at one point Scumberside were sending them out 3 months late.....
jdh
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 May 2013 - 09:00) *
You can contact the court nearest the offence location and ask if they have any information layed in your name.....if they say no, get name, DOB, inside leg measurement of the person as well as making a note of time and date!
If I'd asked the court nearest the location when I was caught in Peterborough they'd have said no as they use Cambridge court instead.
BertB
What was the date on the NIP you recieved? The only thing that would bother me is if they never recieved your reply.

If for instance it was dated 7th December, 28 days runs to 4th January. Which means we are still within the window for a summons to turn up for failure to identify the driver.

Alternatively they could have sent a summons that you yourself haven't received.

So +1 for the phoning the court plan...
Kazz
Hi Gents,

Still nothing in the post...

I've been tempted to call the courts but wouldn't I risk being prioritized?

I received my NIP on the 4th December 2012 IIRC and I sent my NIP back recorded (have proof somewhere)..

Thanks again for all the advise and support.

Cheers
The Rookie
The courts can't lay an information, the Police do that, with only your name and address the courts wouldn't know which police to turn to anyway! So calling now will have no effect.
mynamegoesinhere
Double check with the court, in case:
- they didn't receive your S172 reply (did you get proof of posting?), or
- they sent a summons which you didn't receive

If there is nothing in the court system, go and buy a lottery ticket.
Kazz
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 26 Jun 2013 - 09:34) *
The courts can't lay an information, the Police do that, with only your name and address the courts wouldn't know which police to turn to anyway! So calling now will have no effect.


Hi buddy,

Could it be at all possible that the police have already passed on my details to the courts but they've someone mislaid or lost my details and by calling them, I'd put me back on the list?

Would it be Manchester Magistrates I'd call too?

Cheers

QUOTE (mynamegoesinhere @ Wed, 26 Jun 2013 - 12:34) *
Double check with the court, in case:
- they didn't receive your S172 reply (did you get proof of posting?), or
- they sent a summons which you didn't receive

If there is nothing in the court system, go and buy a lottery ticket.


Hey bud,

It was sent recorded and I do have the proof.
Never really had anything in post go missing but always a first time lol

Thinking of just calling now but still apprehensive lol

Cheers smile.gif
The Rookie
QUOTE (Kazz @ Wed, 3 Jul 2013 - 22:54) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 26 Jun 2013 - 09:34) *
The courts can't lay an information, the Police do that, with only your name and address the courts wouldn't know which police to turn to anyway! So calling now will have no effect.


Hi buddy,

Could it be at all possible that the police have already passed on my details to the courts but they've someone mislaid or lost my details and by calling them, I'd put me back on the list?

Would it be Manchester Magistrates I'd call too?


If information has been laid at the courts, you'll get something eventually, better to find out now than find you've been convicted in your absence!

Court local to the offence, or whichever is the most local and deals with traffic cases.
Kazz
Hi gents,

I rang Manchester Magistrates and the County Courts (I know they're for civil cases but thought I'd check) and they have no record of my name for any cases?

Am I in the clear now? It was the receptionist I spoke with although I forgot to get her details.

Cheers
Kaz
The Rookie
Your now definatley probably OK......
Kazz
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 17 Jul 2013 - 02:47) *
Your now definatley probably OK......


laugh.gif

I'll take that as a reason to stop worrying when checking the post biggrin.gif

Hopefully this will be the end of it!

Cheers
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