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Marisco
Hi, my first post so I'll try and keep it short! Last week my partner got a PCN which we challenged, on the grounds that the signs were not visible or clear where it was referring to, i.e one sign was up an alleyway and another we thought referred to the road (this was a little lane off the road) There were no road markings or parking bays to say it was residents only or pay and display.

Anyway we got a letter off the council rejecting our challenge and saying that we can pay £25 within 14 days or £50 after (this was written twice) So he went to the office where you pay,and the person who served him said it should be £35, so she phoned someone and then came back and said to my partner, "yes that's fine, £25". So he paid up.

Got a call off the council today, saying that we owe them £10 and I replied that we paid what it said on the letter, and she said it was an administrative error. My argument was that we paid in good faith so if it's their fault, then they should take the hit. My question is, do I have a "case"? Has anyone been in this situation? I'm quite willing to go to court on it, but what are my chances of winning? I'd represent myself but don't want to be lumbered with costs!! The woman I spoke to said she'd log it on the system that I refused to pay, and refer it to her supervisor.

I know it's only a tenner, but I don't see why we should pay for their mistakes, especially as the original IMO, PCN shouldn't have been levied in the first place, as the signs were so ambiguous! Sorry, it was longer than I thought!! icon_redface.gif
makara
I think I've seen at least one other similar case on these boards some months back - advice was given, but I can't remember the outcome.


Hopefully others will remember what I'm forgetting.


P.S. I'm in agreement you shouldn't have to pay more because of their silly errors. It would be like a supermarket mistakenly under-pricing their crisps, and you paying the lower price and walking out the store - and then them sending their security guard to drag you back in the shop and make you pay the difference!
Incandescent
OK, the council are in error, but the amount on the PCN is what counts as this is the statutory amount, with a 50% discount if paid early, as in your case. The council cannot, in law, vary this amount. However, see what others say here before doing anything.

Were you really bang-to-rights ? Your post seems to indicate bad signage, so an appeal to the adjudicator could end with the PCN cancelled. However, you have to put the full PCN amount into play, and ignore the discount bribe.
Marisco
Funny enough makara, that was almost exactly what my partner said!! I know it's only 10 quid, but it's the principle of it, why should the council get away with no consequence for their own mistakes! Hopefully someone will remember where the other thread is, thanks.
Marisco
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 7 Nov 2012 - 22:43) *
OK, the council are in error, but the amount on the PCN is what counts as this is the statutory amount, with a 50% discount if paid early, as in your case. The council cannot, in law, vary this amount. However, see what others say here before doing anything.

Were you really bang-to-rights ? Your post seems to indicate bad signage, so an appeal to the adjudicator could end with the PCN cancelled. However, you have to put the full PCN amount into play, and ignore the discount bribe.


The person that my partner paid in the "pay in" office, said that the sum was £35, my partner pointed out it said £25 on the letter, so she phoned someone and was, according to oh, on the phone for a while, then came back to him and said yes that's ok £25.

The signage was bad, it's difficult to explain the set up, but if you imagine a road with a small lane like road off it, running down the side of a derelict closed pub. Three quarters of the way down the pub side is an arch that leads to a back lane, the sign was on the side of the arch that couldn't be seen from the small lane. There was a sign on the turnoff to the lane which said "residents only" or "pay and display" which we thought was for the road itself. The road has parking bays and a ticket meter, this lane has no parking bays or lines or anything on it.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 7 Nov 2012 - 22:43) *
OK, the council are in error, but the amount on the PCN is what counts as this is the statutory amount, with a 50% discount if paid early, as in your case. The council cannot, in law, vary this amount. However, see what others say here before doing anything.




But the letter said £25 and the Council employee then accepted £25 after checking with other staff. So £25 was accepted as full and final settlement.

Procedural impropriety I think. So the OP should wait for the NTO which will be for £45 'outstanding'. Then come back here and show us all the documents, all sides of all pages and formulate a formal appeal and adjudication appeal with help.

I would not be paying the £10 to allow the Council to sweep this under the carpet, I'd be wanting the Council to face an adjudicator over it.
Marisco
Thank you for the replies, I will now wait for the council to contact us, and I'll be back then.
bama
err, can you show us the paperwork ?
Bagshot
Even if you choose not to show us the paperwork now, please keep everything very safe. The original PCN, letters from the council; everything. If the council choose to serve a NtO all that prior paperwork will become important.

Best not to try to imagine the road layout. A good set of photographs and/or a link to Google Streetview is usually a good starting point.
Marisco
It's not that I don't want to show you the paper work, it's just that I'm not sure how to do it! icon_redface.gif It isn't so much the fine itself I'm complaining about, I put in a complaint, and they rejected it, which TBH I expected, so we paid what they asked for in the letter. It's the fact that they are now wanting us to pay for their admin error that sticks in my throat. We paid in good faith what was asked for, they should make sure that they proofread their letters before they send them out!! They shouldn't be allowed to get away with making mistakes and expecting others to pay for it!! I'll stop now before this turns into a rant! icon_mrgreen.gif
Marisco
I've tried a couple of times to put the paper work up and made a right pig's year of it, so I'll just "hand" write it here

Penalty Charge Notice number: xxxxxxxxx
Date of contravention: 02/11/2012
Location:xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Vehicle Registration: xxxx xxx

Dear Mr x

Thank you for your letter date 2nd Nov 2012 in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice. Having considered the contents of your letter (it was actually an email!!) and all available evidence, I find I am unable to agree to the cancellation of the PCN.

The Civil Enforcement Officer who issued your PCN noted that there was no permit on display. (We didn't dispute we were parked there, just the signage was rubbish!) Parking regulations do not allow motorists to decide whether restrictions can be ignored on the basis of conditions at a particular location.

You would need a valid permit to park within the permit area.

Drivers have the responsibility of checking restriction signs and markings, (there were no markings and the sign was not clear which area it pertained to!!) and must park in accordance with them.

Photographs below taken when ticket was issued. (three pics of our car, which we don't dispute was there!!)

Second page

You now have these choices.

You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of this letter.
You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your parking ticket was issued.
You can formally challenge your parking ticket by using Notice to Owner form. The vehicle owner will automatically receive the form if the parking ticket has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your parking ticket or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your parking ticket, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay.....
It then lists how to pay, places to pay and opening times.


Yours sincerely

Parking Control
Regeneration, Development and Regulatory Services.
Bagshot
We are all different, and have different ways of doing things. My way doesn't always meet with full approval.

In these circumstances, I would do nothing about the PCN. I think you should however post up all your paperwork and a Google streetview link to the location. See the FAQs on how to post images.

If and when you receive an NtO you will them be in a position to fight everything at adjudication and get a full refund.

That may be just me. But it is definitely what I would do.
hcandersen
The whole process starts with the PCN - and so should you.

There's no alternative to posting the PCN where we can see in a legal document the council's statement of the penalty charge being demanded.

HCA
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