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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
salynn
Hi,

i stopped my car to go to a cashpoint on saturday evening. I had (wrongly) assumed there would be no problem parking where i did as i had parked there before in the evenings and thought there were no restrictions at this time on a saturday. i must have left my car for about 60 seconds. find attached the pcn and much clearer picture obtained from the council website.










The image on the pcn is not conclusive at all and am tempted to write to the council to ask to view further video images.
EDW
need video or stills.

Hippocrates
The PCN does not contain mandatory information re viewing the images/video/evidence.

PATAS: 2120293222 http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/
Incandescent
Well, you'rebang-to-rights on the actual offence, but the PCN looks defective as Hippocrates says. The contenct for CCTV PCNs is clearly defined in the legislation, so why councils cannot read it and use it is beyond me; they must be stupid or something
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 6 Nov 2012 - 16:50) *
Well, you'rebang-to-rights on the actual offence, but the PCN looks defective as Hippocrates says. The contenct for CCTV PCNs is clearly defined in the legislation, so why councils cannot read it and use it is beyond me; they must be stupid or something


........sloppy and arrogant i.e. the people who draft the documents. Or they rely upon the London Councils' template documents.
salynn
Thanks Hippocrates..is your argument based around the following requirement in the pcn:

to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified

Also the council say they "will respond to your request within a reasonable time" rather than comply....??

i am considering writing to the council to request further evidence of images, ie to see if the video evidence focuses on the sign etc .

Thanks,
SchoolRunMum
Here's another current case with similarities to yours:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=74464

I just added a reply there with an important link to read & help you with some extra appeal points - and a suggestion of some digging to be done online re any published Haringey Policy or Code that may have been breached/ignored in randomly using CCTV camera to lazily enforce PCNs rather than employ CEOs on foot.
salynn
ok, the councils 2012 code of practise states:

"Camera operators will in most cases wait for upto 2 minutes before issuing a PCN. This is to ensure that passengers are not being dropped off or picked up."

also elsewhere in their code...

"Exemptions to enforcement:

1. Waiting to allow a person to aboard or alight the vehicle and load or unload any personal luggage but this should take no longer than 2 minutes unless the person suffers from any disability.

"

Interesting. i probably was out of my car for about 60 seconds in total...Perhaps the issue is the definition of "personal luggage"!
Incandescent
Personal luggage is not part of going to the cash machine ! OK, it's a bit of a harsh PCN but that's how they make money these days. You do have avenues for appeal, though.
salynn
Does anyone know if the cctv operators only have access to live cctv images? or can they "rewind" to obtain better images to support their case? Presumably there are rules...(??)

i have written to the council to request video evidence of the contravention as i am well within the 21 days.

Will keep you posted. Thanks!
salynn
Hi, i wrote a letter dated 8/11/12 "to see futher evidence of the alleged contravention".

i have now received the below correspondence ...is the last paragraph correct - that i am not allowed to see video evidence now?





Any other feedback is appreciated. thanks
Jimmy2Times
They should really supply the video evidence (most councils do this online with instructions in the PCN), a still doesn't prove anything. Your car could be driving down the road, albeit close to the kerb. To wait to the PATAS stage means you need to appeal, by law they have to send you a copy of their evidence etc etc, but this means you loose the discounted 50%.
Friendly71
Strange (but unsurprising, considering it's Haringey) that they do not mention what is stated on their own website: Haringey Council - Challenge a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN)

Extract from above website:

Penalty Charge Notice issued by CCTV

You can make an appointment to view the CCTV footage of the contravention if you feel the notice was wrongly issued. Please email parking at parking@haringey.gov.uk to make an appointment. Viewings are held every Wednesday between 2pm and 4pm.

We will put your case on hold when you make a request to view the CCTV footage.


Perhaps they are expecting you (/ had expected you) to make a specific request to view the CCTV footage? (I did so earlier this year in relation to a Haringey PCN and viewed the footage at their offices in Station Road. The PCN was later cancelled due to incorrect location stated on the PCN.)
hcandersen
What's the problem?

You asked for stills and they say they've sent them - unfortunately we can't see them, there's only one pic.

You have no right to be provided with a copy of the video at this stage, only to view it, and they've done this.

They refer to a "form" in their letter - where is it?

We're still working on your "no more than 60 seconds" line, aren't we? If you're correct, then their policy seems to suggest that a PCN shouldn't have been served.

But we don't know, do we?

The clock's ticking and there's info you've got that we haven't seen.

HCA
salynn
As is my right to see video evidence as per the top of the second page of the pcn, i wrote to the stated council address and in my letter of 8/11/12, i quote:

" i would wish to see further evidence of the alleged contravention, ie video or images that are available. Ideally if video evidence could be sent to my home address."

Essentially the this was a request to see the cctv recording. As of today, the council have not made available the cctv recording to me.

I realize my request may not have been altogether clear.I will need to contact the council again, specifically requesting access to cctv recodring.

hcanderson - there were only 2 stills supplied - the other (not posted) was only of the image of number plate as per the pcn image. The form they refer to is the last page showing how to pay etc

you are right i am working on the "no more than 60 seconds" line - which if i'm honest i seem to be standing on shaky grounds! But its worth at least seeing the cctv recording first.

not sure about the info i am withholding except for in this post...??

Thanks.
salynn
Ok, i have now viewed the cctv images... i had left the car for a total of 50 seconds with the car having stopped for approx 90 seconds

I feel aggrieved and that the council has acted zealously and so feel inclined to risk challenging the pcn on the following basis as follows:

- procedural impropriety re info on viewing cctv images (see prev post)
- camera operated has digressed from the councils own procedures re waiting 2 minutes
- why CEO could not have enforced traffic regs in such a busy juncture of north london

I have small amount of time to submit my appeal on-line so any comments are welcome.

Thanks
hcandersen
Can you still pay the discount?
You were away from the vehicle for 50 secs and the car was stopped for 90. You didn't exit the car with a passenger, neither do you state that you returned with one. So the "allowance" which the council build in to ensure they don't act prematurely in a case of alighting clearly does not apply to you.
If the discount's gone, then we're looking for the best defence and not whether to try one.
salynn
Thanks hcandersen.. Yes the discount is still available only just.

Probably the best argument then is around the issue of pcn by cctv rather than ceo....I scanned some other thread with the following

“The Secretary of State recommends that approved devices are used only where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and CEO enforcement is not practical.

This is a busy area where the alleged contravention took place and there is no reason why CEO’s cannot issue parking penalty notices. Additionally I find no reason for the council to conclude in the case of this alleged contravention, that enforcement by a CEO was difficult, sensitive or not practical. It is clear that the council simply enforced the restriction by an approved device for their own convenience rather than for any of the reasons endorsed by the Secretary of State. "

This seems a strong (and only??) argument so it might be worthwhile to fight on..
salynn
Interestingly, the camera operator pans in on the number plate for around 10 seconds..who's to say that whilst collecting cash from cashpoint a friend entered the rear door of the car, as re-arranged at 6pm.. there is no way of knowing if this took place from the video evidence....just an idea.
hcandersen
Available 'til when?
salynn
the pcn has been put on hold until the 15th march
Incandescent
YOu can see why our high streets are dying when PCNs for this trivial amount of time are issued, even less than the code of practice they say they work to. It's not as if you're on DYLs and completely blocking traffic. How this PCN is "fair, proportionate, and in the public interest", is beyond me.

YOu could appeal on them not following their own CCTV code of practice. If a public body say they will do something publicly, then they must do it.
salynn
Received letter today from the council stating they are cancelling the PCN. They simply advised on the law..but then go on to say the PCN has been cancelled.

So it was worth appealing after all (see post 10th March for basis of appeal)

Quite a success really considering the circumstances. ("banged to rights etc..") ...perhaps the council thought it too much of a risk.. to be seen not sticking to their own procedures about not waiting 2 minutes.

Alternatively perhaps they could not justify not using a CEO to issue tickets in such a busy area on a saturday afternnon...("The secretary of state recommends that approved devices are used only where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and CEO enforcement is not practical.") I think i got this argument from this site...Thanks!

Thanks again to everyone for your comments/support.
Incandescent
Very well done ! The scandal of CCTV and very short waiting times getting a PCN will hopefully be aired at the Parliamentary Committee on Transport investigation soon, but as the Labour chairwoman was around when the TMA 2004 permitted CCTV enforcement of parking, don't think much change will come, if any ! Maybe Mr Pickles will get his way !
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