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ALittleMistake
Hi all,

I recently was pulled and given an Endorsable FPN (£60 & 3 Points) for 'Driver not in control of vehicle'.

It was late at night, clear junction, no cars, dry road, pulled out fast in a RWD car and flicked the tail out.

PC sat in a nearby carpark (lights off) saw it and came ater me and gave me the FPN. I think it was very harsh given the area was void of life and it was 23:45.

Now, I have been given 'Part 2 - Court Copy' which I believe should go to the Court rather being given to me, what implications does this have for this FPN?

If this means it wouldn't be a heard case, I'd obviously prefer to go down that route? But it isn;t clear if the part I have is the part used for FPN resolution, or 'Going to Court', can anyone help?
sgtdixie
There are no implications. Even if you have been given the wrong copy you have a choice. Surrender your licence within 7 days and get the points and pay the £60 in 28 days, or tell the Police you want to go to court.

Your problem will be then whether you get a summons for not being in proper control or for careless. As you were warned at the time you were stopped that you may be prosecuted they can summons you for either.

The courts won't get anything unless you choose to go to court.
ALittleMistake
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 05:51) *
There are no implications. Even if you have been given the wrong copy you have a choice. Surrender your licence within 7 days and get the points and pay the £60 in 28 days, or tell the Police you want to go to court.

Your problem will be then whether you get a summons for not being in proper control or for careless. As you were warned at the time you were stopped that you may be prosecuted they can summons you for either.

The courts won't get anything unless you choose to go to court.


Ok, I have the copies I need (driver copy, payment slip, request court) and I've already produced at a station so I'm now in my 28 days.

So if I choose to go to court, and the court copy doesn't exist, what happens then?
andy_foster
If you request a court hearing, the FPN ceases to bar the police from prosecuting within whatever is left of the suspended enforcement period (21 days or such longer time as may be specified on the notice). This puts the ball back into the police's court (pun not intended) and it is open to them to initiate a prosecution in the same way that it would have been if the FPN had not been issued. The FPN essentially becomes irrelevant.

The 'court copy' will not be something that is required for you to be prosecuted in court. It will almost certainly be the copy that is sent with your licence to the court to be endorsed if you pay the fixed penalty.

And no, we don't know whether or not accepting the fixed penalty when you have the 'court copy' will scupper the process. It is possible that it would do if they do not have the sense to send a copy of the FPN with the licence, or such other information that would allow the court to endorse it. If an endorseable FPN has been lawfully issued, and the penalty paid in accordance with Part III of the RTOA 1988, you cannot lawfully be prosecuted for the alleged offence, even if they balls up the process.
sgtdixie
Did you surrender your licence when you produced?

If you did you have accepted the fixed penalty and if you do not pay the fine it will be registered at the courts as an unpaid fine.

If you did not surrender you have elected to go to court. The Police prepare a summons file and the original paperwork becomes irrelevant albeit the Police copy normally goes in the unused material bundle.

So the 'court copy' can disappear and you will still get a summons.
ALittleMistake
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:23) *
Did you surrender your licence when you produced?

If you did you have accepted the fixed penalty and if you do not pay the fine it will be registered at the courts as an unpaid fine.

If you did not surrender you have elected to go to court. The Police prepare a summons file and the original paperwork becomes irrelevant albeit the Police copy normally goes in the unused material bundle.

So the 'court copy' can disappear and you will still get a summons.


I did surrender my licence, but the person on the desk said I can still apply to go to court by filling in and submitting part 5 (request court hearing) within the 28 days. He also said I can just not pay the fine and would recieve a summons all the same.

The opinion of the traffic officer in the station was that if I applied for a court hearing and they didn't have part 2, it would be requested from the officer that issued the FPN. If he was unable to provide that part, they would leave it to him to resolve - obviously not something that can be done if it doesn't exist.

Have I been fed bum information?

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:21) *
If you request a court hearing, the FPN ceases to bar the police from prosecuting within whatever is left of the suspended enforcement period (21 days or such longer time as may be specified on the notice). This puts the ball back into the police's court (pun not intended) and it is open to them to initiate a prosecution in the same way that it would have been if the FPN had not been issued. The FPN essentially becomes irrelevant.

The 'court copy' will not be something that is required for you to be prosecuted in court. It will almost certainly be the copy that is sent with your licence to the court to be endorsed if you pay the fixed penalty.

And no, we don't know whether or not accepting the fixed penalty when you have the 'court copy' will scupper the process. It is possible that it would do if they do not have the sense to send a copy of the FPN with the licence, or such other information that would allow the court to endorse it. If an endorseable FPN has been lawfully issued, and the penalty paid in accordance with Part III of the RTOA 1988, you cannot lawfully be prosecuted for the alleged offence, even if they balls up the process.


So if I understand what you're saying, I should pay the fine and see what happens re endorsement?

If they court were unable to endorse as they don't have the FPN, I don't suppose the fine is refunded? My understanding is there is no acceptable way this part of an FPN can be recreated and accepted, so surely that puts me in a strong position as it is an integral part of 'the process'.

It has put me in a very awkward position, because I feel I have been charged incorrectly anyway, I certainly wasn't 'not in control of the vehicle', quite the opposite infact, and I'd argue that the only valid charge would be driving without due consideration of others, and even only then if consideration of others extends to people in bed in the surrounding area, at which point it is surely a social issue rather than a traffic offence.
sgtdixie
You need to decide what you intend doing. The normal procedure is that once you surrender your licence they assume you have accepted the FPN (whether that is true is not the question, this is just what happens in practice) and after a short period as it works through the system it will get endorsed. Lost 'Police/court' copies are not uncommon and ultimately they can ask the cop exactly what the offence was and the D/L will be endorsed.

If you want to go to court you must send of the court request ASAP or the whole thing will just get processed by the system.

The issue of the actual offence is more subjective. I once gave a similar ticket to a biker who was 'drifiting' round corners. He turned out to be a pro speedway rider and did this for a living. He went to court and the bench found him guilty. The point the defence made was he was in control of the 'skid'. The prosecution said that he may well have been but he could not control the vehicle should an outside influence occur such as an oncoming vehicle or pedestrian. In other words what would a careful and competent driver be expected to do whilst driving.

In your case we have no idea if this was a tiny blip or a full on skid. Only you and the cop know the facts. When a biker wheelies the same offence is used as the only other alternative is careless driving which has a bigger penalty. (I believe COFPN's for careless are imminent under the new ticketless system). So whilst you may not believe or agree in some ways the cop was using his discretion and minimising your potential penalty.
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