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SH_towerhamlets
Hi!
I have just come home from work to find my car towed away, there has been a suspension sign up since start/mid september with suspension dates relating to september (for which i moved my car), the sign was never taken down and hence i have not paid it any notice since. However i have come home and my car is gone, they have pasted over a new sheet of a4 paper on top of the prvious one with todays date, i have no idea how long it has been up for as i thought they had continued to be lazy and not taken the original down.

Is this allowed? Should they not remove a sign and put a new one up each time? Or do i have to bite the bullet and let them get away with taking my money?

Picture is attched you can see the old dates through the new a4 sheet

Any help much appreciated! thanks
Enceladus
First and foremost recover the car from the pound to avoid racking up charges. Don't say anything except as a direct answer to a direct question. Take whatever pieces of paper you are given. Likely you will need access to £265 and whatever proof of ownership they want. Report back what you get. However do check the car for damage and report it before you leave, if necessary.

You should certainly make representations and appeal if necessary. Since this is a PCN and tow you have nothing further to loose and everything to gain.

EDW
QUOTE (SH_towerhamlets @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 17:06) *
Hi!
I have just come home from work to find my car towed away, there has been a suspension sign up since start/mid september with suspension dates relating to september (for which i moved my car), the sign was never taken down and hence i have not paid it any notice since. However i have come home and my car is gone, they have pasted over a new sheet of a4 paper on top of the prvious one with todays date, i have no idea how long it has been up for as i thought they had continued to be lazy and not taken the original down.

Is this allowed? Should they not remove a sign and put a new one up each time? Or do i have to bite the bullet and let them get away with taking my money?

Picture is attched you can see the old dates through the new a4 sheet

Any help much appreciated! thanks



It is not fair, the sign should be taken down as soon as the suspension ends because it is a temporary sign.

The council is not supposed to put up a sign less than 3 days before the suspension starts.

Did the sign have the two side flaps?

I would ask for a full refund and complain to the LGO.


You need info:
email them and ask when the sign(s) went up and all the suspension periods and ref. nos.
SH_towerhamlets
Thanks for the responses

The items i have recieved following car collection:
reciept for payment
PCN stating the correct code 'parking in a suspended bay' and 11:18 as time of contravention
representationsagainst removal form
*No details about the vehicle removal eg time etc or cost for this??

with regards to the q around the sign, it has two side flaps to create a triangular shape around the lamp post
they haven't treated it as a tempereary sign as they never removed the prior one, i will be checking the next couple of days to see if they come to remove this one

i have emailed the department of transport to ask if they recieved a request for the sign and authorised it (not sure if a restriction like this goes to them but i thought i would ask anyway!)

do you think i have any legal/legitimate standing and ideas on the approach i should take for my appeal against this?

Applogies for my lack of knowledge on the acronyms but what does LGO stand for?

thanks!
Incandescent
It is absolutely outrageous behavious on their part, and as you have nothing further to lose, take it all the way to adjudication. You could get your money back !!

Get pics of the altered notice, though, and quick. Adjudicators only see the evidence 'on-the-day' so make sure your's is comprehensive

Correction

It is absolutely outrageous behaviour on their part, and as you have nothing further to lose, take it all the way to adjudication. You could get your money back !!
EDW
QUOTE (SH_towerhamlets @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 20:21) *
Thanks for the responses

The items i have recieved following car collection:
reciept for payment
PCN stating the correct code 'parking in a suspended bay' and 11:18 as time of contravention
representationsagainst removal form
*No details about the vehicle removal eg time etc or cost for this??

with regards to the q around the sign, it has two side flaps to create a triangular shape around the lamp post
they haven't treated it as a tempereary sign as they never removed the prior one, i will be checking the next couple of days to see if they come to remove this one

i have emailed the department of transport to ask if they recieved a request for the sign and authorised it (not sure if a restriction like this goes to them but i thought i would ask anyway!)

do you think i have any legal/legitimate standing and ideas on the approach i should take for my appeal against this?

Applogies for my lack of knowledge on the acronyms but what does LGO stand for?

thanks!



http://www.lgo.org.uk/
Enceladus
Please post up scrubbed scans of all sides of everything you have. Scrubbed means blank out or obscure your name & address, PCN number and vehicle reg. Also payment card details if present. Please leave visible any date, time, location or Council info.
The TH policy is supposedly to place suspension signs three days in advance. However who knows what the TH working practice or policy is concerning removal of expired signs?
In theory they can suspend the bay at anytime for any reason. Supposedly this would only apply to emergency cases. A domestic removal would hardly seem to be an emergency. But you never know, maybe it was one of the councillors.

So have you any evidence that they failed to update this sign three days in advance? And have you any idea about "As marked on the kerb" and "DO NOT PARK WITHIN YELLOW MARKING ........." Are ther any such markings? Do you have pics?

As you say, it is is possible to make out the old dates through the new A4 sheet. I make the previous start as the 25th Sept? Do you know what the previous end date was?

Assuming you recovered the car today, then the deadline to get formal representations delivered to the Council is Wed 21st Nov. Please do not loose sight of that date or it is game over. However you only have one shot at this before adjudication. So hold fire until you formulate and refine your case.
hcandersen
Let's focus your actions.

Forget about the Local Govt Ombudsman (LGO), it's not relevant at present.
Forget about chasing up DfT, it's the council's burden to prove the sign is lawful, not yours to chase the dept to see if it is.

Your immediate task is to formulate and submit formal reps to the council within the specified period (28 days), to do which we need to see the PCN and other docs.

HCA
Bogsy
Thus far your primary appeal point should be the signage issue and the fact that a temporary sign was allowed to remain in place long after it had expired and it's continued presence contributed towards a legitimate expectation that the parking place was no longer subject to a suspension. I expect though the council will come back and say that a motorist has a responsibility to check signs each and every time they park. Expect to play the long game and to go to adjudication as councils rarely hand money back until adjudication looms.

As a secondary point you can include the text below.

Furthermore, before my vehicle was removed a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) served a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) by fixing it to my vehicle. The regulations pursuant to the Traffic Management Act 2004 (TMA 2004) and also the Operational Guidance to Local Authorities specify that service by a CEO initiates the statutory right to a period of 28 days in which to pay the penalty charge or to make an informal challenge that a council must consider. Furthermore, there is a statutory right to receive and respond to a Notice to Owner. These rights are enshrined in statute and clearly conveyed within the statutory content of the PCN served by the CEO.

I understand that procedural impropriety occurs where an enforcement authority fails to observe any requirement imposed by the TMA 2004 and its associated regulations. I was denied by coercion my right to the 28 day statutory period in which to pay the penalty charge, I was also denied my right to have an informal challenge considered and I was obstructed from my right to receive and respond to a Notice to Owner. Furthermore, I have been subjected to an appeal process pursuant to s.101B of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 despite that where a penalty charge is served then any appeal against it should be pursuant to s.80 TMA 2004. It is absurd that my vehicle has been removed from within a civil enforcement area by a civil enforcement authority for a road traffic contravention subject to civil enforcement and yet the only feature of civil enforcement pursuant to the TMA 2004 that the council has approved is the penalty charge. Civil enforcement is regulated pursuant to Part 6 of the TMA 2004 and is a statutory process that begins with the service of a PCN it does not end with it. Considering these facts, I strongly believe procedural impropriety has occurred and this appeal should be accepted.
SchoolRunMum
And include the last few paragrpahs used by n101 in this successful appeal against a towing:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=70114

IMHO you need to crib those final few paras about the Chief Parking Adjudicator and the conclusion can be similar to that thread too, to round off your appeal. Obviously your opening paragraph will be about this sneaky sign, leaving it there was procedural impropriety, and to then just slap a new A4 sheet on it in October is shocking, almost a trap for you.

Draft your appeal and post a copy of it here first. You only have 28 days and the day you collected your car was day one. And can we see all pages of these please:

reciept for payment
PCN stating the correct code 'parking in a suspended bay' and 11:18 as time of contravention
representations against removal form
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