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mudpie
OK forum members, here goes my tale of woe.

I had a motorcycle which was taxed until 30/09/12, which I part exchanged at a BMW main dealer for another bike back in June. The deal was done on the phone and as they were a long way away from me, the bikes were technically exchanged on the 18th June 2012, one out and one into the van on my driveway.

The paperwork was completed and posted off, never gave it a second thought. I got a VMC mileage enquiry in September which stated a change of keeper has occurred, would I supply the info, which I did. I then got a tax renewal reminded in the post which I discarded (probably an error in hindsight) thinking it was some mistake or it was posted too late etc., then another letter on the 11th October to say they are going to fine me for "Failure to Insure"

I sent copies of all the receipts and invoices and the VMC letter to the DVLA the day after I received the above, however another letter arrived yesterdayto say they still want to me to pay the fine !!!!

At no time was either bike not insured or taxed whilst in my possession, the V5 was posted off to them, and how come the VMC knew of the keeper change and not the DVLA ???

Surely you cannot be prosecuted for an offence you did not commit. As far as I am concerned I have done nothing wrong, and paying any fine for something you have not done is basically an admission of a guilt and fundamentally wrong in my book rolleyes.gif
andy_foster
Who are VMC?
mudpie
VMC are a division of HPI. I assume they obtain/buy the data from the DVLA ? when someone asks about a vehicle they intend to purchase. VMC or Vehicle mileage check just ask you to confirm that you were the previous owners and the approximate date of sale and mileage, presumably to combat clocking.
LEZ9
I have been in same situation, and wondered if my VMC letter woud help me.
A company owned by Experian, they make enquiries primarily to detect "clocking".
Mine was initiated by selling dealer who wanted to protect himself against selling a vehicle with false mileage.
It is no indication that a new keeper is involved yet.
Most likely the only thing it proves is that a dealer has the bike and is trying to sell it.
Others may advise further, but I think the "fine" can be treated like the other DVLA "fines", ie refuse to pay because you have done nothing illegal.
Gan
Dear Sir

The change of keeper information was sent to you on ** June 2012
I have therefore fulfilled my legal requirements.

The Vehicle Mileage Check Ltd enquiry confirms that you received it and updated your records.
I have provided you with evidence of this.

I am not liable for the consequences of your incompetent administration.
If you believe otherwise, please take it to court.

Don't contact me again unless it's to apologise and confirm that your mistake has now been corrected.
mudpie
@LEZ9. Interesting. I don't want to pay out of principal, but sometimes principals' can prove expensive.

I would be interested to hear how you proceeded, would you write again or just ignore them ?
Concrete Jungle
Did you post the paperwork off to the DVLA first class? If you did then you have fulfilled your statutory obligations. The fact that you replied to a VMC in September, after posting the change of keeper information in what I assume would have been June / July time shows how inept the DVLA and Crapita are.

I would ignore the invitation to pay a bribe and write to the DVLA as per Gan.
mudpie
OK, Thanks guys.

The process is a complete joke when you examine it. I will write the letter as GAN has drafted and see what happens. biggrin.gif
The Slithy Tove
QUOTE (mudpie @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 10:15) *
Surely you cannot be prosecuted for an offence you did not commit.


As a point of pedantry, everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they did not commit. They weren't convicted, however.
mynamegoesinhere
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 13:36) *
QUOTE (mudpie @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 10:15) *
Surely you cannot be prosecuted for an offence you did not commit.


As a point of pedantry, everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they did not commit. They weren't convicted, however.


Top quality nitpicking there! icon_thumright.gif
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 13:36) *
As a point of pedantry, everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they did not commit. They weren't convicted, however.


As a further pedantry - everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they have not been convicted of. Whether or not they committed the offence is a separate issue.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 16:28) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 13:36) *
As a point of pedantry, everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they did not commit. They weren't convicted, however.


As a further pedantry - everyone who walks out of court with a Not Guilty verdict has been prosecuted for an offence they have not been convicted of. Whether or not they committed the offence is a separate issue.


Very true biggrin.gif
mudpie
BUMP!

A quick update. Having sent off proof of not owning the bike since June (it was collected on the 18th), and a further letter to say the V5 was sent off as advised, the DVLA have written again giving me the last opportunity to pay the £100 bribe.

Should I ignore it or respond ?

Many thanks

Andrew
Concrete Jungle
Write back to the DVLA and point out the obvious as per Gan, or hang fire and wait for Gan to notice your last post and perhaps come up with a suitable riposte. Make a copy of everything you have sent and received from the DVLA thus far. Copy your next letter and all previous correspondence to your MP.
The Rookie
Have you checked on direct.gov when the last change of keeper was, last time I was on there you could get this info.
mudpie
No. A vehicle enquiry only gives the 1st reg date and the date of liability. https://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortal...?execution=e1s1

My point is the fine is titled "failure to insure" which it never was. Not "Failure to Tax" or "Failure to send the V5 change of keeper recorded delivery" or even "Failure or not to receive our un-recorded confirmation letter in return" rolleyes.gif
Gan
Dear Sir

You prove my point


Staple it to a copy of the original letter but this time with your incompetent administration in bold and underlined
mudpie
QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 27 Nov 2012 - 17:54) *
Dear Sir

You prove my point


Staple it to a copy of the original letter but this time with your incompetent administration in bold and underlined


laugh.gif Gan, you don't take prisoners do you. I will send this tomorrow. I have also emailed the story through to the BBC watchdog team. I do seem to remember some time ago they actually managed to get a big wig to admit the DVLA do very occasionally make a mistake rolleyes.gif
mudpie
Good Morning

If "GAN" or anyone else would care to cast an eye over this letter below I intend to send today it would be very much appreciated. wink.gif


DVLA
Swansea Enforcement Centre
D12, DVLA
Longview Road
Swansea
SA99 1AH

To whom it may concern

Dear Sirs

Further to your letter of the 22nd November 2012, regarding xxxx xxx

Please find attached a copy of my previous letter, with the relevant information you require highlighted for absolute clarity.

A copy of this file has been passed to the BBC Watchdog team, and my local MP, Robert Goodwill.

Please refer to: Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

I have fulfilled the legal requirement by posting the relevant section of the V5 applicable to this vehicle to you on the 19th June 2012. You prove otherwise.

I REFUSE TO PAY A FINE FOR FAILURE TO INSURE AS THE VEHICLE WHILST IT WAS REGISTERED AND OWNED BY ME WAS AT NO TIME WHATSOEVER NOT INSURED.

Yours faithfully,
Gan
QUOTE (mudpie @ Wed, 28 Nov 2012 - 10:52) *
Good Morning

If "GAN" or anyone else would care to cast an eye over this letter below I intend to send today it would be very much appreciated. wink.gif


DVLA
Swansea Enforcement Centre
D12, DVLA
Longview Road
Swansea
SA99 1AH

To whom it may concern

Dear Sirs

Further to your letter of the 22nd November 2012, regarding xxxx xxx

Please find attached a copy of my previous letter, with the relevant information you require highlighted for absolute clarity.

A copy of this file has been passed to the BBC Watchdog team, and my local MP, Robert Goodwill.

Please refer to: Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

I have fulfilled the legal requirement by posting the relevant section of the V5 applicable to this vehicle to you on the 19th June 2012. You prove otherwise. The Vehicle Mileage Check report proves that you received it. Your failure to update the database in a timely manner is not my problem.

FOR THE REMOVAL OF ANY DOUBT, I REFUSE TO PAY A FINE FOR FAILURE TO INSURE AS THE VEHICLE THAT I NO LONGER OWNED WHILST IT WAS REGISTERED AND OWNED BY ME WAS AT NO TIME WHATSOEVER NOT INSURED. UNLESS ORDERED TO BY A COURT

Yours faithfully,


Your letter is a lot better than my original response that, in hindsight, wouldn't have been helpful

Have suggested a couple of changes to make clear what they have to do and the evidence against them
mudpie
Hello chaps.

I am announcing a (muted) SUCCESS on defending this fabricated DVLA charade.

Following the letter sent below, I have had another bog standard change of keeper confirmation letter from them today !!!!

I hope this is now the end of it, presumably by now if they intended taking the matter to court, I would know about it.

Thanks to all who posted for all your help, it is (and was) very much appreciated.

Andrew. cool.gif
I am Weasel
Good news
I am currently arguing about an alleged failure to declare SORN, so hopefully will get a similar outcome
Concrete Jungle
ANY time you post anything that may lead to an invitation to pay a bribe to Crapita C/O the Black Hole of Swansea PLEASE post it FIRST CLASS from a POST OFFICE and ask for the FREE PROOF OF POSTAGE. wink.gif
mudpie
QUOTE (Concrete Jungle @ Thu, 17 Jan 2013 - 13:42) *
ANY time you post anything that may lead to an invitation to pay a bribe to Crapita C/O the Black Hole of Swansea PLEASE post it FIRST CLASS from a POST OFFICE and ask for the FREE PROOF OF POSTAGE. wink.gif


Never a truer word spoken. Excellent advice CJ, and I have to say the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing. biggrin.gif
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