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nath72
Hi all

Ive been sgnposted by a friend to Pepipoo and he has helped a little and it is my first post. Ive actually managed to get a few more PCNs over the last few weeks so will be back for more help. I parked in Hestercombe road and didnt see the suspended sign, although from the photographs that were supplied from LA I dont know where the suspended sign was located other than it might have been hidden behind he removal van i was stopping from entering the bay.

The council wagon lifted my bike and put it on the opposite side of the road so i suppose they did me a favour

Although the council have pictures of the PCN attached to my bike i only knew of the contravention when the NTO came through my door, so im guessing the PCN went astray. Ive asked for a copy of the PCN but I am waiting for this

Here are the pictures of the NTO and where the alleged contravention took place















Can anyone spot anything wrong with the paper work?

this is the link for the streetview

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Hestercomb...cbp=12,270,,0,0


Heres hoping

Many Thanks
EDW
send an email asking for ALL the photos they have.

Do not say anything else.

You may have a case due the wording on the sign.
Observation1
You are lucky they did not remove it to their pound. They are asking for £65 then> I suggest you appeal it (on the back) and if it fails just pay it. Suspension sings are posted 3 to 6 days so it gives you adequate time to reconsider where to park.

M
hcandersen
We do not know where the sign was located (the OP says he did not see it) neither do we know when it was placed.

If the pics represent the council's best evidence then even they do not show that a sign was placed or where.

I wonder what's happened to LBH&F because their NTO is a dog's breakfast? Why do they think it's necessary to state 3 times in different places in the NTO that a CC may be served?

I suggest your lines of argument are:
1. In order for the council to exercise the power to suspend a parking place, it must satisfy the conditions in the traffic order which designated that place. One of these is that a parking place (or part of) may only be suspended if a traffic sign specifying the nature and extent of the suspension is placed in the parking place. In this respect, "traffic sign" is a defined term within the order which means a sign specified or authorised under s64(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. As I did not see a sign, I am relying on the council's evidence in the photos supplied to me and these do not show a sign specified by regulations (in this case the Traffics Signs etc. regulations). Therefore, unless the council can prove that the sign was authorised by the Secretary of State it is not a traffic sign and the suspension was unlawful;
2. In addition, as the parking place is a continuous area i.e. not sub-divided into bays, the council were also obliged to mark or otherwise delineate the so-called suspended part of the place otherwise it becomes a matter of estimation on the part of motorists as to whether they might be outside nos. 61-63. The council have not provided any photographic evidence that my vehicle was outside those properties.
3. A Notice to Owner is, among other matters, required to state:
(2) A notice to owner served under paragraph (1) must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(3) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(b)the name of the enforcement authority serving the notice;

I cannot find that the council have identified themselves as the Enforcement Authority in the NTO.


I've just thrown in the last part but it certainly wouldn't fly if you were served with the PCN and that stated that the council were the Enforcement Authority. But it's all grist to the mill.

HCA
nath72
hi
i did get provided with some additional photos which do show me parked outside 61 - 63 i think but didn't add these - apologies.
i have no idea how i missed the parking suspension. just one of those days i guess . . .
i have added the photos below
thanks for your help so far. very much appreciated.





SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Tue, 16 Oct 2012 - 02:05) *
You are lucky they did not remove it to their pound. They are asking for £65 then> I suggest you appeal it (on the back) and if it fails just pay it. Suspension sings are posted 3 to 6 days so it gives you adequate time to reconsider where to park.





@nath72, ignore this poster who currently seems on a mission to tell people to pay up when they have grounds for appeal.

If you missed the suspended bay signs then how do you even know if they were clearly displayed at the point when you parked the bike there? Maybe they were not. What other photos did the Council have, surely one of the bike and the suspended bay sign in view. IT's no evidence just to have the flippin' removals van in view...one could conclude that the sign wasn't there at that time, if you didn't see it and the Council cannot come up with a concurrent photo.

And unless I am very much mistaken we do NOT live in the USA do we? So if those pics are part of the Council's evidence then in fact they show some pretty but irrelevant views of your bike there on the ninth of May!
Hippocrates
Can we see the whole of the parking suspension sign?
EDW
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Wed, 17 Oct 2012 - 00:20) *
Can we see the whole of the parking suspension sign?



it's a striptease, you get to see a little bit more bit by bit.

oh and without the time, I think the sign is a wrong'un
hcandersen
For crying out loud.

You did not see a sign; that places the evidential burden on to the council to PROVE that a lawful sign was placed in the correct location: it's not your job to prove it wasn't, it's their task to prove it was.

HCA
Hippocrates
OP asks if there is anything wrong with the paperwork...................

1. Two lists of grounds which do not tally.

2. Question for OP:- how many grounds do you think you may tick according to their instructions under MAKING REPRESENTATIONS
paulajayne
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 17 Oct 2012 - 00:10) *
And unless I am very much mistaken we do NOT live in the USA do we? So if those pics are part of the Council's evidence then in fact they show some pretty but irrelevant views of your bike there on the ninth of May!



Good spot -

So from their photograps they have no photographic evidence of your bike being there on the date of the PCN.

Might be worth adding to your challange.




EDW
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 17 Oct 2012 - 00:10) *
QUOTE (Observation1 @ Tue, 16 Oct 2012 - 02:05) *
You are lucky they did not remove it to their pound. They are asking for £65 then> I suggest you appeal it (on the back) and if it fails just pay it. Suspension sings are posted 3 to 6 days so it gives you adequate time to reconsider where to park.





@nath72, ignore this poster who currently seems on a mission to tell people to pay up when they have grounds for appeal.

If you missed the suspended bay signs then how do you even know if they were clearly displayed at the point when you parked the bike there? Maybe they were not. What other photos did the Council have, surely one of the bike and the suspended bay sign in view. IT's no evidence just to have the flippin' removals van in view...one could conclude that the sign wasn't there at that time, if you didn't see it and the Council cannot come up with a concurrent photo.

And unless I am very much mistaken we do NOT live in the USA do we? So if those pics are part of the Council's evidence then in fact they show some pretty but irrelevant views of your bike there on the ninth of May!



Bonus ball.
nath72
Hi All
I still didn't get the pcn or the traffic order or anything. have mailed them again asking for these and will post when they find the time in their incredibly busy schedule to respond.
just hoping you can give me some guidance on wording this challenge. . .
what do you think?



To Whom It May Concern

RE: PCN

This informal challenge is based on the following 4 points


1. In order for the council to exercise the power to suspend a parking place, it must satisfy the conditions in the traffic order which designated that place. One of these is that a parking place (or part of) may only be suspended if a traffic sign specifying the nature and extent of the suspension is placed in the parking place. In this respect, "traffic sign" is a defined term within the order which means a sign specified or authorised under s64(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. As I did not see a sign, I am relying on the council's evidence in the photos supplied to me and these do not show a sign specified by regulations (in this case the Traffics Signs etc. regulations). Therefore, unless the council can prove that the sign was authorised by the Secretary of State it is not a traffic sign and the suspension was unlawful;

2. In addition, as the parking place is a continuous area i.e. not sub-divided into bays, the council were also obliged to mark or otherwise delineate the so-called suspended part of the place otherwise it becomes a matter of estimation on the part of motorists as to whether they might be outside nos. 61-63. The council have not provided any photographic evidence that the council marked the suspended part of the bay in any way..

3. A Notice to Owner is, among other matters, required to state:
(2) A notice to owner served under paragraph (1) must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(3) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(b)the name of the enforcement authority serving the notice;

I cannot find that the council have identified themselves as the Enforcement Authority in the NTO.

4. the photos have the date listed as 09/05/2012. this would indicate that the vehicle was parked in this location in the month of may. so unless there is further photographic evidence which relates to the date in question this evidence is invalid.

I hope you will consider these representations and that I might hear from you soon.
EDW
Looks fine, send it by email or via their website and keep the auto acknowledgement thing.

Do they have a photo the bike in place AND the sign in the same photo?
nath72
QUOTE (EDW @ Wed, 24 Oct 2012 - 22:55) *
Looks fine, send it by email or via their website and keep the auto acknowledgement thing.

Do they have a photo the bike in place AND the sign in the same photo?



no they never provided a photo with the sign and the bike in the same photo. i got the ones i posted from their website. they have not responded to my requests for information at all.
hcandersen
At present the legal obligation lies with you to submit your reps or pay or possibly be served with a CC. They do not have to respond to your requests, although I would certainly bring this to the attention of the adj should it get that far.

So I'd go with your draft.


HCA
EDW
QUOTE (nath72 @ Thu, 25 Oct 2012 - 23:19) *
QUOTE (EDW @ Wed, 24 Oct 2012 - 22:55) *
Looks fine, send it by email or via their website and keep the auto acknowledgement thing.

Do they have a photo the bike in place AND the sign in the same photo?



no they never provided a photo with the sign and the bike in the same photo. i got the ones i posted from their website. they have not responded to my requests for information at all.



The Appellants' case is that the suspension was not sufficiently clearly indicated. The onus is on the Council to show that it was. The CEO has photographed a suspension sign and recorded it as being 12 yards from the vehicle; however, as the Appellants point out this sign is not visible in either of the photographs that show the vehicle which is not what one would expect if the sign was clearly in view on a reasonable inspection. On the evidence I am unable to be satisfied the suspension was sufficiently clearly indicated and the Appeal is allowed.
nath72
ok. sent. interested to see what they come back with now. . . .
nath72
On return from a 2 week break away I have received this rejection of representation letter.






it seems they have not addressed points 1 2 or 3 of my challenge. are they obliged to?

any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

thanks in advance

Nath.
SchoolRunMum
Well you are in for the full amount of £130 or nothing so it's a no-brainer to press on to adjudication. Go for it of course!

Yes they do have to address your points. Have they still not shown a pic showing your bike and the suspended bay sign? Lack of evidence, lack of consideration of your appeal points too - point this out to the adjudicator.

Is there another page or two in that rejection letter? Surely they have explained how to appeal to the adjudicator and provided a form? Please post pics of it all, it is not standard blurb.
nath72
ahh ok.i just assumed it was a standard form and not really relevant. here we go.










that's the lot.
thanks again.
nath
Hippocrates
If you care to read my advice and the legislation re grounds, you may wish to include procedural impropriety re the defects on the PCN.

5(2)(b)(i): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/5/made

Grounds: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/4/made

The PCN very clearly limits you to one ground and publishes two lists which are not the same.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (nath72 @ Mon, 19 Nov 2012 - 20:36) *
On return from a 2 week break away I have received this rejection of representation letter.






it seems they have not addressed points 1 2 or 3 of my challenge. are they obliged to?

any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

thanks in advance

Nath.


Yes they are obliged. Now compare with this from the legislation and discover what else constitutes this document as pants:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/6/made

I assume that is all the NOR?
hcandersen
What does your horoscope predict for this week - you will be relieved of a great burden?

The NOR is fatally flawed and IMO you would win at adj.

This is what a NOR must state:
QUOTE
Rejection of representations against notice to owner

6.—(1) Where representations are made under regulation 4 and the enforcement authority serves a notice of rejection under regulation 5(2)(b), that notice shall—

(a)state that a charge certificate may be served unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—
(i)the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii)the person on whom the notice is served appeals to an adjudicator against the penalty charge;
(b)indicate the nature of an adjudicator’s power to award costs; and
©describe in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal to an adjudicator must be made.


The adj will definitely not like the fact that the council have not advised you regarding the issue of your potential liability for costs.

Register your appeal and cite contravention did not occur and Procedural Impropriety, add in box 5 that in its Notice of Rejection of Representations the council failed to advise you regarding the nature of an adjudicator's power to award costs contrary to the requirements of regulation 6(1)(b) of the Appeals Regs and as such this constitutes a Procedural Impropriety.

Get your appeal registered ASP (just fill in the form with the additional info as above) and make sure you add the comments in box 5. The reason I say this is that this info would be passed to the council who, if they continued to dispute the case, would, ironically, be guilty of exactly the same vexatious behaviour of which they omitted to advise you and therefore be liable for costs!

HCA
nath72
hi all
apologies I didn't include these as i thought they were just part of the standard form.
just getting the hang of this and am making it difficult for you all to help me i know. sorry.
here is the additional form/info.









this is the form i got with the above letter.
thanks again
Nath

EDW
you decide on personal hearing or postal.

Details of appeal -
You can file these when council has sent you their evidence in the post.

But you must write something now - such as - 'details to follow'.
nath72
QUOTE (EDW @ Wed, 21 Nov 2012 - 17:26) *
you decide on personal hearing or postal.

Details of appeal -
You can file these when council has sent you their evidence in the post.

But you must write something now - such as - 'details to follow'.



Hi. I don't understand. I thought I had 28 days to appeal? is it important I get this done sooner than that?
regards
nath
interlog
You have 28 days to register the Appeal with the PATAS.

Further evidence can be send at a later date once the Appeal has been acknowledged and a date for the decision has been set.
hcandersen
What the NOR is to contain has nothing to do with what's in the form, so the comments I made earlier hold - you have a solid appeal.

HCA
nath72
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Nov 2012 - 18:45) *
What the NOR is to contain has nothing to do with what's in the form, so the comments I made earlier hold - you have a solid appeal.

HCA

marvelous. thanks. i'm off to read my horoscope now . .
nath72
QUOTE (nath72 @ Wed, 21 Nov 2012 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Nov 2012 - 18:45) *
What the NOR is to contain has nothing to do with what's in the form, so the comments I made earlier hold - you have a solid appeal.

HCA

marvelous. thanks. i'm off to read my horoscope now . .



thanks hca.
should i also question the signage do you think? is the suspension sign legal and is it legal that they have failed to address the first 3 points of my representations?
nath72
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 20 Nov 2012 - 23:29) *
If you care to read my advice and the legislation re grounds, you may wish to include procedural impropriety re the defects on the PCN.

5(2)(b)(i): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/5/made

Grounds: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/4/made

The PCN very clearly limits you to one ground and publishes two lists which are not the same.


hi
thanks for this. i also notice from this that they have a duty to respond to my representations and have failed to do this in the nor. i will include this in my appeal.
all the best.
nath.
nath72
Hi.
Just wanted to say a massive thank you to everyone for all your help. i just got a letter from the hammersmith authorities stating that they will not be contesting my appeal to patas on this occasion. i will post a copy up when i get a chance.
i have learnt loads. thanks everyone for you help and guidance. very much appreciated.
Nath.
EDW
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Hippocrates
Well done. occasion18.gif icon_jook.gif
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