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DFC101
Hi all,

I'd be grateful if I could obtain some input on the following situation:

I was stopped on the 1st October 2012 by police (who caught up with me) and was accused of travelling 94mph in a 50mph zone. This was the M77 in Glasgows southside, near Jct 1 southbound. It was late at night and so was completely dark, the roads were very quiet.

The officers checked my license (valid, 3 points from an SP30, although address was wrong) and took me in to the back of the patrol car. They explained they had "caught" me travelling at 94mph, with no explanation of how I was caught.

One officer explained that 94mph was too high over the 50mph limit to issue me a speeding fine, so he explained he was "writing it up" as careless driving. Whilst I was being read some standard legal text the other officer was on the radio checking my license and the cars registration details.

I explained that the car was a pool vehicle belonging to my employer. They checked this and seemed happy enough without any proof that I worked there. The officer then began writing up my details in a note pad (I was never issued with anything to take with me). He then asked if my address was correct (presumably as my employer is West Midlands based, yet I was driving a company car in Glasgow) and I explained it was not. He said there was a fine of up to £1000 for a license with the incorrect address on it, if the time to change had exceeded 6 months (which it has).

The officers then explained I should expect something in the mail and would need to go to court. They also said if it "turned out to be classed as dangerous driving" that I would face an instant ban.


Note: I am aged 22, vehicle was a 3.0d Jaguar XF which I was permitted to drive via employer.

My queries are as follows:

How long do they have to issue me with a NIP?
Were the officers right to be vague about whether it was speeding, careless driving or dangerous driving?
Do they seem to have followed protocol?
What am I likely to face, based on my explanation?
Will I definitely have to go to court?
Will they notify my employer or contact them for any reason?
My employer is a car manufacturer, and some of our pool cars are ex-engineering vehicles. Legally, would there be any ground to question the performance of components such as speedos in the vehicle etc?
Finally, and I know this can vary massively, how much would a ballpark figure for legal costs be?


Many thanks for any help you can provide. I very much appreciate what the members of this forum do for others.

Best Regards,

DFC
jimster
You won't get a postal NIP as you were stopped by the police.


Is the "wrong" address one that you can be contacted at?




uk_mike
You will have been administered a verbal NIP so the next step will be a citation. They have 6 months to issue the citation which must be served within a few days so 6 1/2 months max.

You will have been told what offences they will be reporting you for, it is for the Procurator Fiscal to decide which if any they want to take to court. Some Fiscals are hot on DD for very high speeds, but it is sometimes possible to get them to drop that in return for a guilty plea to careless driving.

It is enevitable that such a high speed will go to court. At that speed a ban is enevitable probably in the 28-56 day range if you have never been banned before, unless you can put forward a compelling hardship plea. If convicted of DD you face a near mandatory minimum 12 month ban. Your employer will not be notified, you will need to check your employment contract to determine if you are required to reveal the conviction. DD is a recordable offence and will result in a criminal record, the lesser offences are not.

Questioning the accuracy of your vehicles speedo of your vehicle is futile as speeding is a strict libility offence, and will only risk landing you in more trouble as it is a criminal offence to drive a vehicle that has a defective speedo and the liability falls on the driver of the vehicle.

Costs are not awarded in Scottish criminal cases so you will not have to pay prosecution costs. You can defend yourself in which case it will only cost you your time. A local solicitor should be able to handle a guilty plea for a few hundred pound, a not guilty would be somewhat higher. A specialist in Road Traffic law would set you back in the order of £2,000-3,0000.

I woud advise that you notify the DVLA of the change in addressas soon as you can, the officer has given you a pretty strong hint to get it done and he may check in a few weeks to confirm that you have, and you probably don't want to end up with another charge, or the DVLA revoking it.
DFC101
Both - I forgot to mention that I did give them my current address verbally.

Jimster - The address currently displayed on the license is my parents address. And so I guess they would be expected to know my whereabouts.

uk_mike - Thanks for the detailed info. I'll change the address ASAP.

I did briefly phone a road traffic law solicitor who seemed fairly passionate about the situation. He said he would be inclined to plead not guilty to avoid the risk of a DD ban of >12 months. Obviously this was all based on what I could explain over the phone but still.

How long would a DD conviction stay on my criminal record? I don't believe I'm required to tell my employer but I will have to double check

Also, how long from receipt of the citation documents being delivered should I expect the process to take? Weeks/months/6months?

Many thanks for the help
uk_mike
I think that a DD is "spent" after 5 years. Glasgow is a very busy court so it is likely to be a few months before you hear anything.

To be honest I'd not be inclined to use a specialist unless they do go for DD. You are pretty much bang to rights on the speeding IMO, but a decent solicitor would be best placed to get a DD reduced to a lower charge.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (DFC101 @ Tue, 9 Oct 2012 - 20:18) *
How long would a DD conviction stay on my criminal record? I don't believe I'm required to tell my employer but I will have to double check


I would be very surprised if you weren't meant to tell your employer, especially motoring relating convictions which could and may affect insurance.
glasgow_bhoy
Putting it into perspective (albiet in a Paisley court) a recent result for 95mph in a 50 zone was a conviction for careless driving, with 9 points and few hundred quid fine. However tailgaiting was also added into that mix. And also given to a driver who was only 2 years back on the roads after a 12 month Drink Drive ban. You wouldn't get stung as badly as him I don't think.

Late at night, M77 is pretty quiet. I'm on M74/M8 every night after 10pm and its easy to go quick- so the quiet roads will help your situation. Also, with the stupidly new low M74 speed limits, and the cars pulled on there every single night, I reckon Glasgow's court will be more used to seeing offences of this speed, and that could work in your favour.

Legal costs vary by who you employ. Get a local firm and your not gonna pay too much- but you won't get specialists. Get one of the best, like Michael Lyon (Road Traffic Solicitor, based on High Street), and you will pay more but get a good solicitor. I've heard good things about Scullion Law in Hamilton direction- cheaper than the solicitors in town, and specialise in traffic. But don't engage in legal advice until you know if you've been charged with Careless, Driving Without Due Care, or straight Speeding.
jimster
There should be no action taken against you for having your parents address on your licence...

This is not uncommon, and as long as it is not done to fraud insurance etc, it is legit.


DFC101
I've changed my address on my driving license anyway just in case.

The officer said may go to Paisley court but he wasn't sure.

Is there anywhere I can view court outcomes online based on what glasgow_bhoy said? I looked at www.thelawpages.com, but the offences reported as much more severe than I am expecting,

Thanks,
Sangamoura
QUOTE (DFC101 @ Tue, 9 Oct 2012 - 20:18) *
I don't believe I'm required to tell my employer but I will have to double check

Good job you don't work for me !

If by some miracle of disloyalty and malfeasance you did manage to hide a DD conviction from them then there could be very serious repercussions if you subsequently had an accident in a company vehicle when your history would be guaranteed to come out possibly resulting in the insurance company refuting a claim on the grounds that you shouldn't have been driving the vehicle in the first place and face almost certain instant dismissal to boot. IMO then if convicted you have no real option but to fess up.

On the question of speedo accuracy even assuming it was out, and remember we are not talking about 60 or 70 in a 50 but a speed approaching double the limit, not that it's really a defence anyway, I'd be very interested to hear your argument that it was so wildly inaccurate as to lead you to honestly believe that 94mph was only 50. Of course any such defence would necessarily involve some sort of supporting evidence from your employer !
DFC101
By that I meant have to tell them about pooints (had this cleared up today in work). But of course for a DD I would tell them as I legally have to.

For just points we are given restrictions on points/experience each time we book a car out. And so the responsibility is left to staff to make sure they meet the requirements to drive the vehicle they have booked
DFC101
Hi All,

I'm resurfacing this after now receiving a court citation from the Police (visited my home in England and personally delivered, did not have to sign for it though which I thought was odd).

The charge is "you, MR xxxxx xxxxx, did drive a mechanically propelled vehicle, namely motor car reg XXXX XXX dangerously and did drive at grossly excessive speed, during the hours of darkness, in heavy rain and very poor visibility......"

The evidence then states: "Due to the excess of speed and the poor weather conditions police witnesses believed that a report for careless driving was more appropriate than speeding. The accused was informed of this, issues a section 1 warning and thereafter allowed to go on his way.

So - Is the charge definitely "dangerous driving" or could it still be "careless driving", as the evidence says it was being reported as careless?

Also, my court date is on 1st March in Glasgow Sheriff Court. This is very little pre-warning IMO (docs received today, Feb 13th). How do they expect me to be able to get to the court, from England, at such short notice. Is this fair?

Additionally, I disagree that heavy rain and poor visibility were current at the point of speeding. It had rained earlier I believe, but it was not raining at the time and I would have called visibility relatively clear. Can I use this as leverage?


What would people recommend I do, make the effort to go on March 1st? Plead guilty/ not guilty by mail? And how much info about my income etc should I reveal? I've been given a form to complete with income and employment etc but it says I have the option to send it back or not.

And finally, how likely will it be that I am awared Criminal Legal Aid if I can demonstrate how much financial hardship affording one myself would be? There is a section explaining this and where it applies, but it's difficult to tell. It mentions getting legal aid if the result of the charge could mean losing your job. If it's a DD offence then surely I could potentially fall under this category?


Many thanks for any help. As you can imagine this is a fairly stressful time as I consider the impact on my job/livelihood.

Cheers,
The Rookie
Dangerous and careless are 'statutory alternatives' in that the degree of 'bad driving' determines which, as you are charged with DD the court can go for whichever fits the facts of your case. Had only careless been on there that would have been the maximum they could have convicted you of.

Plead guilty to careless and they may decide not to have a trial and push for DD.....that's a MAY!

The first hearing will be to hear your plea, plead by post and a further date will be set for trail/sentancing as appropriate unless you've been required to attend.
terminator x
Better to go to court imho as the few times that I've pleaded guilty by post they have crucified me!

TX.
DFC101
Thanks for the input both.

I've spoken to two road traffic solicitors today who have given me the following advice:

As the charge states dangerous driving, a plea of guilty would almost definitely be an instant 12 months ban with a required test re-sit.

Pleading not guilty would allow for a defence to be formed against the court that would factor in the following -

- the subjective nature of weather conditions classification
- the fact that I have a witness who going give evidence stating that they didn't consider my driving to be careless/dangerous/aggressive etc
- the fact that I was told it would be reported as careless driving, as the evidence states, despite my charge being of something more severe
- potentially the calibration and accuracy of the device used to capture my speed


As far as I'm concerned, I need to do everything I can to avoid a 12 month ban, as it would be too disruptive to my job and livelihood. Money hasn't been discussed at great detail yet, but I'm provisioning potential costs of 2.5k to hire a solicitor. I don't think i'd stand a chance without one to be honest...


AFCNEAL
I'd find a better so-called traffic solicitor for a start. The calibration certificate defence is long extinct, ditto device accuracy........although strictly speaking you could run it with the benefit of 'experts' which would increase the costs manyfold......and even then only 50% chance.

Your witness was presumably a friend or colleague in the car.....................go figure (is s/he a road traffic expert?)

It's not too hard to show what the weather was doing that day and if one/two experienced traffic police say it was raining heavily (easily changed to 'spray') who are the Court likely to believe.

What you claim to be told and what was prosecuted doesn't really change the scenario - the CPS/PF's office decide, not the Police.

You seem determined to rack up huge costs when you're most likely facing 6 points and a few hundred quid fine?........
AntonyMMM
Is the element of danger in your driving purely evidenced by your speed and the road conditions/visibility or is there some alleged manoeuvre you carried out (undertaking, swerving etc) that you haven't mentioned ?

Where did this witness suddenly spring from ?

Did neither of these solicitors suggest an offer to plead guilty to careless/speeding might be the best way to go ?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (DFC101 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 16:39) *
I've spoken to two road traffic solicitors today who have given me the following advice:

As the charge states dangerous driving, a plea of guilty would almost definitely be an instant 12 months ban with a required test re-sit.

Pleading not guilty would allow for a defence to be formed against the court that would factor in the following -

- the subjective nature of weather conditions classification
- the fact that I have a witness who going give evidence stating that they didn't consider my driving to be careless/dangerous/aggressive etc
- the fact that I was told it would be reported as careless driving, as the evidence states, despite my charge being of something more severe
- potentially the calibration and accuracy of the device used to capture my speed


The prosecution witnesses will describe the weather. You and any defence witnesses will describe the weather. The Jury will decide what they consider to be the actual weather.
Only an expert witness can give evidence of opinion. Your friend can only give evidence of fact. Traffic Officers are sometime admitted as expert witnesses in some narrow fields. Standard of driving is sometimes one of them but that would be very unusual. Again you will describe your driving, the Police will do the same and the Jury will decide if it fell below or far below the standard of a capable and competent driver.
An NIP for an offence you have been stopped for covers any other offence to which s1 RTOA 1988 applies.
The calibration issue is as has been said almost a dead duck. There are 2 Police witnesses who will no doubt be corroborated in their opinion by a speedometer or a speed detection device.

In cases of dangerous driving you must attend. I suggest that when you receive the police statements you sanitise them and post here. Without knowing what they are saying we can't advise.
DFC101
One of the solicitors I've spoken to seems to be regarded as one of the best, if not the best, in Scotland. Obviously I can only assume this based on the research I've done online, but he specialises in road traffic law and not just standard law with driving offences thrown in the mix.

After another call there he seems confident he could take on my case and win a careless with point and a small fine. I could plea guilty, but only to careless driving, but then run the risk of them refusing it and then they'd definitely go for on dangerous driving. I pointed out the things that I consider flaws, and he agreed it doesn't sound like logical protocol.

For me, paying the solicitor fees is a better option than risking a 12 month ban.


I'll post the statements here after I blank off some stuff.

henrik777
As there is a discount for an early plea, including points, i'd be inclined to turn up at the pleading diet and try to negotiate with the fiscal (including the weather if it'll help). They may accept a guilty to careless and if you are happy with that then you'll get the full discount (unless you only get so few points that a full discount would take you below 3 which is a statutory minimum).

There are no costs for or against in Scotland except what you spend yourself.

A guilty plea does you out of the chance of a procedural cockup but you shouldn't get banned if you get a deal you'll accept.
DFC101
Charge and Evidence



DFC101
QUOTE (henrik777 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 18:40) *
As there is a discount for an early plea, including points, i'd be inclined to turn up at the pleading diet and try to negotiate with the fiscal (including the weather if it'll help). They may accept a guilty to careless and if you are happy with that then you'll get the full discount (unless you only get so few points that a full discount would take you below 3 which is a statutory minimum).

There are no costs for or against in Scotland except what you spend yourself.

A guilty plea does you out of the chance of a procedural cockup but you shouldn't get banned if you get a deal you'll accept.



So from that you're saying I can go to the court on the date I've been given, listen to what the "deal" will be, and make a plea based on that?
jamie1
what lawyer are you usuing mate? Is it Michael Lyon or Martin Black by any chance?
henrik777
There is no deal. You need to find the fiscal on the day and talk to them. Given the careless charge was more appropriate, according to plod, getting a careless deal should be fairly straight forward.

If you get careless it's 3-9 points or a discretionary ban. A ban is possible but certainly not a year and it can be discounted unlike a mandatory 12 months for dangerous driving which can't be discounted.

In a JP court it will probably be careless as a JP cannot hear dangerous driving cases. However as it's in Glasgow a Stipendiary Magistrate can hear dangerous driving cases. Ask the court official if they know if it's a JP or Stipendiary Magistrate.
DFC101
QUOTE (jamie1 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 19:07) *
what lawyer are you usuing mate? Is it Michael Lyon or Martin Black by any chance?



Yes mate, any info about them I should know about?
henrik777
As good as it gets not sure they can get you the new mortgage you'll need though.
DFC101
QUOTE (henrik777 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 20:07) *
As good as it gets not sure they can get you the new mortgage you'll need though.



Haha yeah that's what I thought when he told me the cost. Looks like I can just afford it without having to alter my lifestyle much. Just means my current debt will remain the same for the next year or so
sgtdixie
The standard defence tactic is to plead guilty to careless driving. If the prosecution accept this you will get credit for a plea on the day. If they don't it will go to trial, probably at a later date. At the trial you plead not guilty to dangerous but guilty to careless. At the end of the trial there are 4 possible verdicts.
Guilty of dangerous
Not guilty of dangerous but guilty of careless
Not Guilty
Not proven (a specific Scottish verdict)

You know a conviction for dangerous is a years ban minimum. If you are found guilty of careless they will give you credit for a guilty plea.
A not guilty or not proven verdict means you walk.
StuartBu
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 20:43) *
A not guilty or not proven verdict means you walk.


Edited
DFC101
After advice from Scullion Law, Michael Lyon Solicitors and a few other less known names (including regular solicitors) I've decided to take on a solicitor and plead not guilty. I can't afford not to I don't think, it's not worth the risk to my job.


Looks like a low budget couple of months are on the cards...
craig51
Just to slightly hijack this thread, what are people's opinion on graham walker solicitors. He's has paired up with mr loophole etc and been on the press. I may need the service of one soon so need to ascertain who to use.
uk_mike
QUOTE (craig51 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2013 - 18:23) *
Just to slightly hijack this thread, what are people's opinion on graham walker solicitors. He's has paired up with mr loophole etc and been on the press. I may need the service of one soon so need to ascertain who to use.


Graham Walker is a specialist Road Traffic solicitor. He has been around for years and has lots of experience. I have no personal experience of him but I have never heard anything bad about him.
craig51
Thank you, good to know. Certainly his help so far has been great, and all free. He has advised me to sit tight until/if I get a complaint through the post. For dangerous driving or careless driving, how long due police have to lay info at the PF and how long do they have to issue a complaint??
uk_mike
A citation has to be issued with 6 months of the offence, and it must be served ASAP. The police can submit a report to the PF at any time but obviously after the 6 month limit there is not much the PF can do with it!

The advice is valid, until you see what charges are libelled there isn't really much to do defense wise.

If you create your own separate thread with details folks will be happy to give you some advice.
pete74
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 17:24) *
QUOTE (DFC101 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2013 - 16:39) *
I've spoken to two road traffic solicitors today who have given me the following advice:

As the charge states dangerous driving, a plea of guilty would almost definitely be an instant 12 months ban with a required test re-sit.

Pleading not guilty would allow for a defence to be formed against the court that would factor in the following -

- the subjective nature of weather conditions classification
- the fact that I have a witness who going give evidence stating that they didn't consider my driving to be careless/dangerous/aggressive etc
- the fact that I was told it would be reported as careless driving, as the evidence states, despite my charge being of something more severe
- potentially the calibration and accuracy of the device used to capture my speed


The prosecution witnesses will describe the weather. You and any defence witnesses will describe the weather. The Jury will decide what they consider to be the actual weather.
Only an expert witness can give evidence of opinion. Your friend can only give evidence of fact. Traffic Officers are sometime admitted as expert witnesses in some narrow fields. Standard of driving is sometimes one of them but that would be very unusual. Again you will describe your driving, the Police will do the same and the Jury will decide if it fell below or far below the standard of a capable and competent driver.
An NIP for an offence you have been stopped for covers any other offence to which s1 RTOA 1988 applies.
The calibration issue is as has been said almost a dead duck. There are 2 Police witnesses who will no doubt be corroborated in their opinion by a speedometer or a speed detection device.

In cases of dangerous driving you must attend. I suggest that when you receive the police statements you sanitise them and post here. Without knowing what they are saying we can't advise.


will it be a jury trial for a driving case?
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