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monzaman
Hello all, new to this forum and just after some specific advice really:

Got an NIP back in June after being allegedly caught by the M6 toll/M42 southbound junction 9-7 variable speed gantry. It asked for confirmation of driver which I provided as only my wife and I are named drivers on the car. Was rather annoyed as I remembered the day I was travelling, it was middle of the day empty road and good weather and I had no recollection of a reduced speed limit on the gantry. It said I was doing 66mph and limit was 40mph. Sent the form off and heard nothing until last week when I received a summons to appear in court in December.

Since then I have done some research as clearly the implications of this are not good - potentially 6 points and even possibly a ban. From reading this forum it appears this section of motorway is notorious - I note the similar case of another member here (Turtle82) http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=37068&st=0

He appeared to win by default and it is not clear as to whether his not guilty eveidence would have stood up or not as the CPS appeared to back off on the day in court.

My circumstances are: 44 years old, driving for about 26 years. I got 3 points for speeding in a 30mph zone by a mobile camera 3 years ago, otherwise an unblemished record. Last accident that was my fault was so many years ago I can't remember when.

I emphatically do not remember seeing a reduced speed sign on this road. In the picture of my car there is only one other car visible (road is empty) and he is alongside me doing the same speed so I would imagine he got 'done' too. My brake lights are not on and my speed of 66mph would indicate I was probably travelling at what I thought was a legal 70mph.

The NIP came within a few days of the alleged offence.

I intend to do as Turtle82 did and ask for further info about the cameras from the police and highways agency via the freedom of information act - this may or may not influence my decision on how to plea - depends what I get back I guess. I have spoken to 2 lawyers who have both quoted a similar amount to represent me for a non guilty plea. Both have advised it would not be prudent not to have a lawyer present under those circumstances which probably sounds about right to me. However, one of those lawyers also offered to represent me under a guilty but with mitigating circumstances plea to attempt to get the points/fine reduced. This would be roughly half the fee.

My question is twofold really - firstly, does anyone know of any cases other than Turtle82's that have won under the circumstances that he was intending to fight it (as would I)?
Alternatively, if I do not find that I can present good enough evidence to go down the 'not guilty' route, do I really need a lawyer to represent me if I choose the 'guilty but with mitigating circumstances' route? (It is after all still very expensive!). I am reasonably coherent, look respectable in a suit and would argue that being self employed and also an employer I really need my licence (with as few points on it as possible) to carry out my work (which is correct), other people rely on me employing them, my previous record is pretty good, I believe the 66mph I was doing is only 1mph over the threshold into 6 points, considering the speed I was doing I was clearly under the impression I was travelling at 70 quite legally etc etc?

Any advice gratefully received as I need to move on this fairly soon. Thanks!
Johnxxx
I've had a question in my mind for a while - perhaps someone here can provide an answer which will also help the OP.

If the CPS takes a VSL case to court, what evidence will they present to show what the VSL was at the time of the alleged offence, how long it had been in force and that the signs had been correctly displaying that limit at the time, in the lane concerned ?

I've also seen VSL signs showing different speed limits for different lanes - is this sensible, enforceable or legal ? I thought that speed limits applied to "the carriageway" not individual lanes. Would the CPS evidence include lane information etc ?
johnjo42
QUOTE (monzaman @ Mon, 8 Oct 2012 - 18:32) *
I had no recollection of a reduced speed limit on the gantry. It said I was doing 66mph and limit was 40mph.
I emphatically do not remember seeing a reduced speed sign on this road.Any advice gratefully received as I need to move on this fairly soon. Thanks!


Sadly the issue isn't whether or not you remember there being a reduced speed limit in operation but whether there was a reduced speed limit in operation.

Assuming that you didn't receive the Prosecution evidence with the Summons, you should write to the CPS asking for it although I suspect that you won't get it till the day of the first hearing if, as is likely, they are treating your case as a specified offence, i.e. they don't prepare a full case file at the first stage.

Once you see the evidence you can then decide how strong the case is against you but the very fact that you have not said that there definitely was no reduced speed limit exposes you to the suggestion that you may not have been looking properly.

If you don't get the Prosecution evidence until the hearing, I suggest that you tell the Court that you do not wish to enter a plea until you have had an opportunity of going through it, especially if you write for it in good time. The Court won't like it but you can't be forced to enter a plea (the days of pressing rocks on your chest have long gone) although you may lose some of the discount for an early guilty plea. (You must, of course, attend the first hearing)

Once all the smoke clears, though I suspect that you will find that at the time of the alleged offence there was a reduced speed limit in place and the signs were operational because it is an automated process. But if you're not happy, you are entitled to challenge that evidence at a trial.
JJ
monzaman
JJ
Thanks for the advice. As I'm sure you appreciate, unless you specifically notice a reduced speed because you are travelling faster than it, it's unlikely you will recall what was shown on the individual gantries because you have no reason to until something like this goes wrong.
All I can say is that I was travelling alone (so no distraction), I was not on the phone (ditto), the weather was good and the road was clear. Do I have proof that the gantry was not lit up? Unfortunately of course I don't as this would be impossible.

It is likely that the CPS will produce evidence to show the camera was on and set to that speed (otherwise it would not of course have been triggered), the question is was there a fault with the gantry sign that caused both myself and the driver next to not be aware of it?

To enter a not guilty plea will be very difficult without that evidence. I have taken the first steps in attempting to procure information as to the number of faults on this section of road so we shall see. All I can say is that I find it surprising. I am an experienced driver who travels quite a few miles a year on business and I make sure I am aware of these reduced speed signs because I need my licence. For this reason I find it very surprising to find myself in this position.
Mr Rusty
I hate these things. If the sun visor is down because you are driving into the sun, the gantries disappear out of view way before you pass under them. I have had gantries light up just before I passed under. Does anyone know if there is a delay before the cameras kick in after the speed limit is posted? It seems to me there are possible circumstances where you can get caught out even when driving with utmost care.
Jlc
A period of 'grace' of 1 minute, apparently...
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