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roaming around
I received a PCN, code 62 for parking with one or more wheels on the footpath etc. Well it certainly was true, I was parked along with several other cars with my wheels on the kerb, the road is narrow and certainly there could be problems with emergency vehicles etc if people were not parked in such a manner. When I returned to my car I had a ticket, but only my car was ticketed. I was completely bemused by this as I was unable to discern any difference with the way I was parked compared to the other vehicles. This was a wet Sunday, no one about to ask for info so decided to return another day.

This I did and once again there were rows of cars parked with wheels off the road. Then I was told by a mechanic from a local garage that parking was allowed on the kerb but not the pavement and that if your wheels were even an inch over the line of the kerb you would receive a ticket. I might add that the kerbs are also of varying size and often broken. There were no signs or markings on either the footpath or surrounding street furniture to inform a stranger to the area that this was how the parking was managed.

If you look at the attached photo A, you can see how cars are parked with almost millimetre precision and thus manage to avoid tickets. I accept I probably was over this "demarcation" line, after all I never knew it existed. I became even more mystified when I noticed that in several of the side streets there were vehicles parked quite clearly over the kerb on the pavement (photo B) surely they were at risk of being ticketed ? The answer to that was no. The locals park like that all the time, its believed that as the roads are quite narrow at several points even kerb parking would not be sufficient to allow larger vehicles to pass and that therefore no tickets are issued. I can't state that is the reason for not ticketing these cars, I can state there were several dozen cars parked in such a manner without tickets and I accept what I was told by the locals.

A little bit of research here leads me to believe that Barnet Council seem to take a somewhat haphazard approach to pavement parking and I'm now wondering about the validity of this ticket. Yes I now know that I can't park in such a manner unless there are signs allowing me to do so, but am I not right in thinking that this apparent division of kerb and footpath has no legal basis and that I would therefore have grounds for appeal ? Of course if there is no legal basis to the distinction they are hardly going to admit to me that that this is how they manage the parking situation so I would imagine I would have to base at least part of my case on photos of numerous other vehicles being similarly parked ?

Certainly would be grateful for any advice. Thanks.
Incandescent
Of course there is no distinction between kerbstone and pavement. So if, as you say, so many are not being ticketed, one does have to think that maybe money is changing hands somewhere !
roaming around
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 26 Sep 2012 - 20:56) *
Of course there is no distinction between kerbstone and pavement. So if, as you say, so many are not being ticketed, one does have to think that maybe money is changing hands somewhere !


My view is somewhat different where the monetary aspects of this are concerned, it is the amount of money raised from those cars that are ticketed rather than those who are not. And make no mistake about it, this is a very nice money earner. Whilst the locals obviously know this parking "rule" casual visitors will not. In particular I'm told that when a function is taking place nearby the wardens turn up in squads late at night and issue dozens of tickets. I may not know much about parking law but I recognise a honeytrap ,sadly this time after I had drove into it smile.gif
SchoolRunMum
We have seen some London Boroughs pick on the car that's nearest to the junction only (was that yours?). Then when challenged they introduce that fact as if it's part of the contravention (some stuff about the Highway Code). Works I am sure, to convince many people to pay up.
ford poplar
The car in photo A is clearly parked on the footway. The kerb is part of the footway, despite what the mechanic says.
The message can be sent by just ticketing the occ car, rather than all.
What is annoying is if you park legally all 4 wheels on highway, then some other driver, quite often a resident who feels they have a right to park in front of their house, parks legally, directly opposite you on the other side of the road, thus causing an obstruction, then the only alt is DYLs or resident parking permits.
Bluedart
QUOTE (roaming around @ Wed, 26 Sep 2012 - 19:27) *
I received a PCN, code 62 for parking with one or more wheels on the footpath etc. Well it certainly was true, I was parked along with several other cars with my wheels on the kerb, the road is narrow and certainly there could be problems with emergency vehicles etc if people were not parked in such a manner. When I returned to my car I had a ticket, but only my car was ticketed. I was completely bemused by this as I was unable to discern any difference with the way I was parked compared to the other vehicles. This was a wet Sunday, no one about to ask for info so decided to return another day.

This I did and once again there were rows of cars parked with wheels off the road. Then I was told by a mechanic from a local garage that parking was allowed on the kerb but not the pavement and that if your wheels were even an inch over the line of the kerb you would receive a ticket. I might add that the kerbs are also of varying size and often broken. There were no signs or markings on either the footpath or surrounding street furniture to inform a stranger to the area that this was how the parking was managed.

If you look at the attached photo A, you can see how cars are parked with almost millimetre precision and thus manage to avoid tickets. I accept I probably was over this "demarcation" line, after all I never knew it existed. I became even more mystified when I noticed that in several of the side streets there were vehicles parked quite clearly over the kerb on the pavement (photo B) surely they were at risk of being ticketed ? The answer to that was no. The locals park like that all the time, its believed that as the roads are quite narrow at several points even kerb parking would not be sufficient to allow larger vehicles to pass and that therefore no tickets are issued. I can't state that is the reason for not ticketing these cars, I can state there were several dozen cars parked in such a manner without tickets and I accept what I was told by the locals.

A little bit of research here leads me to believe that Barnet Council seem to take a somewhat haphazard approach to pavement parking and I'm now wondering about the validity of this ticket. Yes I now know that I can't park in such a manner unless there are signs allowing me to do so, but am I not right in thinking that this apparent division of kerb and footpath has no legal basis and that I would therefore have grounds for appeal ? Of course if there is no legal basis to the distinction they are hardly going to admit to me that that this is how they manage the parking situation so I would imagine I would have to base at least part of my case on photos of numerous other vehicles being similarly parked ?

Certainly would be grateful for any advice. Thanks.


As with so many things they say from time to time, I think Mr Mechanic is talking tosh. Ask him for the evidence and then read what it might say.
Exeter in Devon, is one of only two (I think) places where pavement parking is allowed, providing the sign permitting such behaviour is adjacent to where you may park on the pavement. Again I think it is rubbish, as it would be far better to mount the pavement with permission to pass a vehicle, than it would to allow vehicles to permanently park on the pavement, thus leaving room to pass without having to mount the pavement.

Let me also say this regarding Exeter, which is not a unitary authority and therefore has no say in what may or may not be placed on the highway, (Only the county council can do that). At every entrance to the City, there are signs saying, "Do not park on grass verges, central reservations or pavements." yet there are many places within those signs, giving you permission to park on the pavement.
roaming around
Disagree.
Mr mechanic said it was allowed (prefer tolerated ?) never said it was legal. Google street view seems to agree with him, take a look down Victoria Road NW4 and surrounding streets to see what I mean. Pics posted below. Its quite obvious that if they were ticketing those who parked on the kerbs you would not see the number of cars doing it as they are. I took the pic of the breakdown vehicle, it was parked there when I got my ticket, still parked there when I went back 10 days later to take pics. You can see the rubbish under the wheels.

As I stated in my original post, the reality of the situation is that if your wheels are on the kerb you don't get a ticket.

SchoolRunMum
But that doesn't help your case. THe fact that other cars were not ticketed never helps an appellant. The advice so far is correct.
hcandersen
OP - while you merrily debate this issue you're in danger of losing the opportunity to submit a risk-free challenge to the authority (I presume it's risk free, but as you've not even posted the back of the PCN it might not be).

Get back to basics.

Both sides of PCN
Council's pics not yours or GSVs

PCN served on 16 Sept. in which case the 14-day discount ends on Sat 29th. I'd get my skates on to do something rather than just talk about matters.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh but you're in a process which has the potential to crush you if you do not recognise the fact.

You still have 2 days in which to pay the discount.

HCA
roaming around
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 27 Sep 2012 - 18:31) *
OP - while you merrily debate this issue you're in danger of losing the opportunity to submit a risk-free challenge to the authority (I presume it's risk free, but as you've not even posted the back of the PCN it might not be).

Get back to basics.

Both sides of PCN
Council's pics not yours or GSVs

PCN served on 16 Sept. in which case the 14-day discount ends on Sat 29th. I'd get my skates on to do something rather than just talk about matters.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh but you're in a process which has the potential to crush you if you do not recognise the fact.

You still have 2 days in which to pay the discount.

HCA


Fair enough, point taken. Rear of PCN added. The poor quality is due to the fact that the print on the rear is extremely faint and only becomes legible with post scan treatment.

Will make an informal online challenge and request pics.
ford poplar
You omitted the payment return part on rear of PCN

Also read first sentence on PCN rear. Photos are avail to view on-line so they won't send you any IMO
hcandersen
Good, we're back on course now.

HCA
roaming around
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 28 Sep 2012 - 01:11) *
You omitted the payment return part on rear of PCN

Also read first sentence on PCN rear. Photos are avail to view on-line so they won't send you any IMO



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 28 Sep 2012 - 06:50) *
Good, we're back on course now.

HCA


I didn't omit the payment part but its on the front of the pcn on my first post. The marks that you can see at the bottom of the rear of the PCN are actually on the front, the paper is so thin and ink so faint on the rear that a scan by itself just produces a white image with dirty marks, have to raise brightness massively for it to be legible. Likewise I hadn't read the rear as it was too much of a pain. Anyway pics now uploaded. Many thanks.


SchoolRunMum
I take it you did already send off an informal appeal seeing as they need to get it by tomorrow? You said earlier that you would, just want to check it's gone as you didn't show a draft of it or anything...
roaming around
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 28 Sep 2012 - 23:02) *
I take it you did already send off an informal appeal seeing as they need to get it by tomorrow? You said earlier that you would, just want to check it's gone as you didn't show a draft of it or anything...


Well it was my plan to submit an informal appeal on line but the attached image shows current situation with their parking page, if it still persists by Saturday then a recorded delivery letter will be in the post that will also point out the fact that their site was at fault smile.gif
SchoolRunMum
So you went here and it didn't work once you put in the PCN number and vehicle number?

https://live.esd.ce.civicahosting.co.uk/bar...allengePcn.aspx
roaming around
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 28 Sep 2012 - 23:40) *
So you went here and it didn't work once you put in the PCN number and vehicle number?

https://live.esd.ce.civicahosting.co.uk/bar...allengePcn.aspx


Aah its up and running now, been down for the last 2 hours, going to enter an appeal with the bare minimum of details just to get the extension and then act on whatever advise I am given, hope that's the best way to go about it ?
SchoolRunMum
Yes unless you want to pay of course! But so far there's not much to go on as the car was clearly on the pavement so not sure what you are going to say TBH. But time is of the essence and they will probably reject it anyway.
roaming around
It's done now, I fully expect it to be rejected. Possibly by the time that happens I might be able to grit my teeth and pay it but really don't feel like rolling over on this one.....
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (roaming around @ Sat, 29 Sep 2012 - 00:09) *
It's done now, I fully expect it to be rejected. Possibly by the time that happens I might be able to grit my teeth and pay it but really don't feel like rolling over on this one.....



Fair enough, I wouldn't roll over and pay either! I decided ages ago on here, once I understood the game, that if ever I get another PCN from a Council I will appeal it all the way to adjudication, hopefully picking up little snippets of procedural impropriety or wording flaws in the Council responses along the way.

Not that I am planning to get another PCN (only ever had one and I paid it at the discount, years ago, as you do). But I love to see how man y peeps can get off the penalties on here and know what I would do now.

As I see it, the 'discount' is just a mouldy carrot not worth considering! To me it's an all or nothing gamble with the odds in your favour - and I like a bit of a gamble. You either pay the full charge or nothing - and most people who go as far as adjudication pay nothing.
ford poplar
Hopefully you have bought yourself a further 14 days to decide if email was received by deadline.

Even if Mr Mechanic was correct (which I doubt), the kerbstone is the narrow edge of the footway (clearly visible). The 3x2 slabs on which 2 wheels rest is clearly the footway. What other aspects are you hoping to rely on?
Whilst this is a fightback forum, sometimes the only advice avail is how to mitigate OP financial loss/penalty.
EDW
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 27 Sep 2012 - 18:31) *
OP - while you merrily debate this issue you're in danger of losing the opportunity to submit a risk-free challenge to the authority (I presume it's risk free, but as you've not even posted the back of the PCN it might not be).

Get back to basics.

Both sides of PCN
Council's pics not yours or GSVs

PCN served on 16 Sept. in which case the 14-day discount ends on Sat 29th. I'd get my skates on to do something rather than just talk about matters.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh but you're in a process which has the potential to crush you if you do not recognise the fact.

You still have 2 days in which to pay the discount.

HCA




Some good advice at last, amongst a sea of noise.



And now for the law:

A failure over a substantial period of time (months, not minutes, in my opinion) amounts to an implied undertaking not to enforce a restriction.

The problem is that if this is the first time OP parked in the street then how would he have good reason to think that enforcement had stopped? Maybe the cars on the kerb? Sounds weak to me.
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