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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] No speed limit sign, dual carriageway, bulit-up area
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
tcxbalage
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2012
Date of the NIP: - 26 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 28 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Hampton Road West by Canterbury Rd E/B TW13 (9839)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving my motorcycle on the above mentioned road, it is a dual carriageway, there is no speed camera warning sign and no speed limit signs. My speed was 38mph (it is a bulit-up area, so the limit is 30, stupidly I believed it is 40).
The only sign i found ther is a blue "Dual carriageway ahead".
Is there any chance to avoid the fines and the penalty points?
http://goo.gl/maps/sc8Lf


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 22:52:36 +0000
Logician
No 30 limit signs are required where there is street lighting, no camera signs are ever required. What was the good reason for the NIP's late arrival?
tcxbalage
I bought the bike one day before, so they sent the first letter to the previous owner.
It looks like I will have another 3 points on my license smile.gif

update: if I want to take my case to the court, is there any chance they will offer a higher fine, but no points?
mrh3369
No. If you go to court you will get a higher fine anyway plus costs and still get the points.
Jlc
That speed should be eligible for an awareness course which avoids the points. The fee is around £90 though and half a day of your time.

Looking on GSV there is a speed camera sign (not that it is required) and no limit signs due to the street light arrangement. There's a speed curb camera which I presume caught you.
captain swoop
If you are already in a built up 30 area why would you think it had changed to 40 without any signs?
tcxbalage
Thank you all for the comments!

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 07:47) *
That speed should be eligible for an awareness course which avoids the points. The fee is around £90 though and half a day of your time.
Looking on GSV there is a speed camera sign (not that it is required) and no limit signs due to the street light arrangement. There's a speed curb camera which I presume caught you.


Unfortunatelly I did that course in the last 3 years smile.gif


QUOTE (captain swoop @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 07:58) *
If you are already in a built up 30 area why would you think it had changed to 40 without any signs?


I think this is a bad habit, most of the dual carriageway's speedlimit - in built-up area - is 40mph.
Obviously I'm talking about those areas, where I used to drive almost every day. Feltham is not
one of them. When I reached the dual cw I was accelerating automaticly. That's all. smile.gif
Jlc
Ok, very annoying - should end up with a standard fixed penalty (3pts/£60).

I think you've realised now but the limit in such circumstances is 30 unless otherwise posted. As a strict liability offence there is no distinction between deliberately or accidentally (or unknowingly) exceeding the limit.
tcxbalage
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 10:25) *
Ok, very annoying - should end up with a standard fixed penalty (3pts/£60).
I think you've realised now but the limit in such circumstances is 30 unless otherwise posted. As a strict liability offence there is no distinction between deliberately or accidentally (or unknowingly) exceeding the limit.


Yep, I can't blame anyone but myself, should be more careful next time.
This is the effect of routine in driving smile.gif
The only annoying thing about it, the insurance premium will goes up,
which is - my opinion - really not fair.
mrh3369
It seems very fair to me, more points = higher insurance risk although 3 points is unlikely to have a huge impact.
Jlc
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 10:38) *
It seems very fair to me, more points = higher insurance risk although 3 points is unlikely to have a huge impact.

OP is currently on 3 points so will be 6. Insurers work on risk and statistically more points increases this. Of course, the OP's argument will be that this particular transgression hasn't increased the risk but will be grouped with those that do. It may or may not be an opportunity to change insurers to counteract the premium increase.

However, the T+C's of the insurance should be checked once the points arrive as some require immediate notification and others at renewal.
tcxbalage
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 10:38) *
It seems very fair to me, more points = higher insurance risk although 3 points is unlikely to have a huge impact.


Just because you drive faster than the speedlimit doesn't mean you gonna make (or involve to) an accident more likely.
I'm talking about my case, 38mph instead of 30mph, I guess it is not a fatal mistake, this offence shouldn't be awarded
by 3 points.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 10:53) *
However, the T+C's of the insurance should be checked once the points arrive as some require immediate notification and others at renewal.


Thanks for the reminder!
mrh3369
We are going off on a tangent here but statistically that's exactly what it means hence the increased premiums.
tcxbalage
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 11:05) *
We are going off on a tangent here but statistically that's exactly what it means hence the increased premiums.


I agree with that, but we are not just statistic.
Anyway, I got my answers, I will accept the liability.
Thank you all, very helpful community!
sputnik365
QUOTE
I agree with that, but we are not just statistic.

Ins. Co. have nothing else to work with.
Also, higher speed in an accident means higher cost for repairs and more serious injury.
The Rookie
Just to clarify, if the previous course was with a different constabulary that was not part of the national scheme at the time then the Kent (?) Constabulary may not ne aware and offer another.
tcxbalage
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 14:16) *
Just to clarify, if the previous course was with a different constabulary that was not part of the national scheme at the time then the Kent (?) Constabulary may not ne aware and offer another.


I dont get it, could you explain, please?
My previous NIP was served by the Watford police (speeding in Bushey) and this one happened in Feltham.
jobo
QUOTE (tcxbalage @ Thu, 6 Sep 2012 - 13:32) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 14:16) *
Just to clarify, if the previous course was with a different constabulary that was not part of the national scheme at the time then the Kent (?) Constabulary may not ne aware and offer another.


I dont get it, could you explain, please?
My previous NIP was served by the Watford police (speeding in Bushey) and this one happened in Feltham.
is watford in kent ?
The Rookie
Canterbury is in Kent.......all the clue I has was Canterbury road so guessed and added a ? to indiacte that fact!

It's by county (which you forget to put in the wizard) so if it's in the same county then no you can't do another course, if it's in a different county then you MAY be able to.

Neither Watford nor Feltham are county's, so at no point have you told us a county at all, so you'll have to figure that yourself or tell us!
progbloke
TBF, I also thought it was Kent when I saw Canterbury Road. blush.gif

As it's in Feltham, it's either Surrey or HMC of the Metropolis.
tcxbalage
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 6 Sep 2012 - 13:48) *
Canterbury is in Kent.......all the clue I has was Canterbury road so guessed and added a ? to indiacte that fact!

It's by county (which you forget to put in the wizard) so if it's in the same county then no you can't do another course, if it's in a different county then you MAY be able to.

Neither Watford nor Feltham are county's, so at no point have you told us a county at all, so you'll have to figure that yourself or tell us!


OK, it's clear smile.gif
I haven't found that information on the NIP, that's why I left that field empty.
So Bushey is in Hertfordshire and Feltham belongs to Greater London.
(according to Wikipedia)
The Rookie
Feltham may or may not be Met police, I'm sure somewhere on the NIP it says what Police force it is!
tcxbalage
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 6 Sep 2012 - 14:48) *
Feltham may or may not be Met police, I'm sure somewhere on the NIP it says what Police force it is!


I found it, it says Metropolitan Police. (it was on the letterhead)
I remember the previous NIP was served by the Hertfordshire Police.
How can I found out if they were the part of the national scheme that time?
The Rookie
You'll find out they were if you either don't get offered a course or get an application rejected......any enquiry will only flag you up and is best not done!
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