FightBack Forums > PCN received sent appeal email [now inc better video]

Full Version: PCN received sent appeal email [now inc better video]

FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices

Mark-D

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 13:54

Unfortunatly I found this website after sending the email. Anyway here is a copy of it with attached evidance. Do you think I stand a chance?

I have since been on google street view and there used to be a sign where I parked on a lampost but the photo is from 2008 and there was NO lampost or sign when I parked there. I litterally had no clue I shouldn't have been parking there.

QUOTE

I email regarding PCN Number MC5******** served on 01/09/2012 by Civil Enforcement Officer M---- for Vehicle *****.

Address: *******

Having been careful when parking and have never received a ticket in my life so was shocked to return to my car on Saturday to find I had been issued with one. I specifically chose the spot because there were no warning signs that I could not park there and that it was close to a police station so hopefully safe.

The contravention was as follows: "Parked in a residents or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place".

I parked on what Google maps shows as Bell Crescent near the police station yet the ticket states Kylemore Way Opp Police Station. Bell Crescent does not have any houses on it so I’m confused as to why it was classed as a residential area. Also if you view the attached video and photo’s the route I took in shows no warning signs that I am entering a controlled area.
The map shows my route with photo’s at points A, B & B2 showing the turnings and entrances to the roads which have no warnings about parking. The video at point C also clearly shows there are no signs about parking.

Point A

Point B

Point B2

Video Found at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gXr0...ature=youtu.be

I hope in light of viewing the evidence you will cancel my ticket because I could not have conceivably known I was in violation of any parking laws.

Regards

qafqa

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 17:27

QUOTE

I parked on what Google maps shows as Bell Crescent near the police station yet the ticket states Kylemore Way Opp Police Station.

The wrong location is worth looking into, this information leaflet
http://www.gmp.police.uk/live/Nhoodv3.nsf/...le/Bradford.pdf
and other web pages gives the police station address as
Grey Mare Lane Station,
Bell Crescent
Manchester M11 3BA

Bing maps says Bell Crescent but a Home Office list states
Grey Mare Lane Police Station,
Grey Mare Lane, Manchester M11 3BA

If this is the location the yellow lines across the parking place
look unusual, they might be OK but usually they run next
to the kerb, not along the outside edge of a parking bay.

Link to StreetView Outside Police Station

orford

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 18:00

That bay is resident permit on match days:
http://goo.gl/maps/FbE54

I'd concentrate on wrong location

hcandersen

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 18:09

You state:

QUOTE

I litterally had no clue I shouldn't have been parking there.

If that's correct, then you're in the clear. You might have to take it to adjudication, but that's life.

But the "if it's correct" is an issue. You've posted 4-year old photos, so we can forget those. Unless you have contemporary pics, either yours or the council's (have you looked at their web site to see if they've got photos?), then it's your word against the council's. On that basis I think you'll lose if there is a traffic order which establishes the restriction at that location because the council will claim that the location was marked and you're not able to offer evidence to the contrary.

In all honesty, there isn't much point asking whether we think you should have known that you couldn't park there because there's nothing for us to see and therefore it's impossible to make an informed assessment.

Anyway, you've emailed the council within the 14-day period and they've obligated themselves to respond to your challenge. So let's see what they say.

HCA

Mark-D

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 21:44

I was getting wound up by this and went back today. I have recorded the route shown on the map on video and there is not one of the official signs (blue circle with red line through it) on the whole route. There are however 1 very small sign on the opposite side of the road quite far from where I have parked. If I'm looking to park on the right I wont be looking at the left hand side of the road and certainly not at small white sign. There used to be one right by where my car was parked (by looking at street view from 2008) but it is no longer there. How can I be ticketed for essentially not being able to see into the past?? They also had tickets on about 6 or 7 other cars who'd done the same as it does indeed look a totally legal place to park. Seems like a money grabber to me!

Ok here is the video it is 2.30mins long but after watching it please let me know if you think there is any clear indication of residents parking. I have spotted one sign (As shown below) on the opposite side of the road but that is because I have since gone looking for it. (and yes I know my car squeaks. Its my Whiteline Rear anti-roll bar which needs greasing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkS1KhsReA...eature=youtu.be

Mark-D

Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 22:51

QUOTE (orford @ Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 19:00)

That bay is resident permit on match days:
http://goo.gl/maps/FbE54

I'd concentrate on wrong location

If you view ether of my video's you will see that sign is no longer there.

qafqa

Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 08:50

The Beswick Resident Parking Zone featured in a previous
thread. It is for a different location but shows the workings of the
system and what to expect.

parking control zone, Threads merged
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=57239

The 2005 TRO in that thread doesn't seem to include Kylemore Way
a copy of a more recent version would useful if/when the council
refuse to accept the challenge.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=7319

The two videos are excellent but the YouTube page in post #1
produced An error occurred during validation
message on this machine.

Mark-D

Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 09:28

That link was very useful. Thank you!

Seeing the councils behaviour I fully expect them to reject my claim.
I now need to get an up to date list of streets in the CPZ. If Kylemore Way is not there i'm in luck because that’s where they said I have parked despite the police station address and Google maps saying different.
I can also fight that there is one small non legal sign on the opposite side of the road far away from where I park and thats it on my route in, and therefore being from out of town there was no possible way I could have known not to park there. There were many other parked cars all with tickets who had all fallen for the same thing!

QUOTE

The two videos are excellent but the YouTube page in post #1
produced An error occurred during validation
message on this machine.

Strange, the 2nd video is better and shows the same thing. I will check it later as this is from the day the ticket was issued.
Just checked it on my phone and both video's seem to be functioning correctly. Perhaps a glitch in the matrix

qafqa

Tue, 4 Sep 2012 - 19:27

Double yellow lines across a parking place without a sign feature in this thread:
Off-road parking bay inside Controlled Zone, see post #2 by Bogsy
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=57806

Mark-D

Wed, 19 Sep 2012 - 14:35

Well as expected had my rejection letter today. I wonder if they guy even bothered to look at my video as he would have clearly seen that the entrance to the zone is not marked.
I have looked at the PCN images online and they have shown a picture of a parking sign which I have no clue where they have got it from. It’s certainly not located by my car possibly on the other side of the road a fair distance away.
What do I do now as I really feel strongly about this. If you view my video you will see there is no way I could have know I was not able to park there.

I have requested an up to date list of streets included in the "Beswich" scam "Zone". Will report back. Fingers crossed Kylemore is still not on there. It shouldn't be since there is not one house on the road!

Mark-D

Thu, 20 Sep 2012 - 12:08

Can no one help me with this? Do I appeal again or am I best waiting for the £70 fine to come through and appealing on that paper work?
As said i'm waiting for an update CPZ road list to come through as the road I parked on was not listed in 2005.

Incandescent

Thu, 20 Sep 2012 - 19:29

You can appeal again based on the evidence discussed here, but may not be offered the 50% discount again. If they refuse to consider a second informal appeal, they are guilty of a procedural impropriety. there being no legal limit. However, at some point the discount period will end, and you will receive a Notice to Owner, which you can appeal again. As

Do be aware that some adjudicators seem to resent websites assisting the poor old motorist prepare his case, yet ignore the near limitless resources available to councils.

hcandersen

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 08:02

Can we get back to the council's evidence please.

You say that there are photos and that you've seen them. But we haven't.

You allege that:
1. you weren't in the stated road, and
2. there wasn't a sign.

And yet we still have not seen the photos. We must see them.

HCA

Mark-D

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 09:30

Attached photos from the council website.
The road signs in their photos do seem to indicate I’m on Kylemore Way (see further info below photo) which is a good thing as in 2005 it was not included in the CPZ where as Bell Crecent is (despite there being no signes on my side of the road). I'm awaiting up to date list of Beswick CPZ roads (about 50+)

Once I have the Beswick information I will draught a new appeal email, if people would be so kind as to comment on it before I send it I would be appreciated?

Dated Photos

Photo of sign 3 lamp post away on the opposite side of the road, not located anywhere near my car. If you view the video of my drive in there are NO clear legal signs when leaving the main road and turning left into the supposed ZONE. How am I supposed to notice a small (non legal sign) on the opposite side of the road 3 lamp posts away???

NOT DATED. One lampost to the left is a lampost saying "Bell Cresent" (closer to my car) you can view this on google maps but the council state i'm parked on Kylemore road. I Unless I can get off with my ticket because they say i've parked in the wrong place I will not contest this because the current information I have seems to indicate Kylemore not being in the CPZ.

Nowhere near my car.

hcandersen

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 11:34

And an event or match day is.....?

So, even if the sign applies this is on specific days which the council is required to display. So where are they?

Do you recall a match or "event"?

HCA

Mark-D

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 11:44

Even if I did know about an event, not being from the area and parking on a non residential street which is not listed in the "Beswick Zone" with no signs at all near my car how would I know I was parking in a residential zone?

I just spoke to the council. She said I could do an informal appeal again but even with more information 99.9% of the time it will be rejected and I must wait for the £70 fine to come through and appeal on that. Its "all about procedure" she said.

hcandersen

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 11:52

Pl don't fence around.

Did you or did you not know of an event because it was displayed somewhere? The answer is yes or no.

HCA

Mark-D

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 12:00

I did know there was an even but not because of a sign. This was my first time to Sports City. I chose to park there for 2 reasons.
1) It was next to a police station so I thought my car would be safe
2) It was far enough from the stadium to not be in any CPZ as I was looking out for signs.

I am not trying to find a loop hole i'm fighting this because I 100% dont think I did anything wrong. Please view my video in this thread and you will see the exact route I took. Everyone I have shown the video too has said "fair enough, I would have parked there too". As did the 7 or 8 other motorists ticketed on that day.

SchoolRunMum

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 18:50

QUOTE (Mark-D @ Mon, 3 Sep 2012 - 23:51)

If you view ether of my video's you will see that sign is no longer there...if you view my video you will see there is no way I could have know I was not able to park there.

I had to hunt among all the pics to find the right video, here it is again for browsing posters who are new to this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkS1KhsReA...eature=youtu.be

I agree with you - and we are on your side here, no one minds a nice loop hole on here but your case isn't even that it seems. Especially if, as you say, this road is out side of any mapped zone.

As already advised by Incandescent:

''You can appeal again based on the evidence discussed here, but may not be offered the 50% discount again. If they refuse to consider a second informal appeal, they are guilty of a procedural impropriety. there being no legal limit. However, at some point the discount period will end, and you will receive a Notice to Owner, which you can appeal again.''

That's it in a nutshell really so either send another informal challenge (any wording of your choice, no legalese) to draw out a rubbish response (or no response) and set your mind to be thinking of this as an all or nothing appeal which you may well win in the end. Or just relax and wait for the Notice to Owner and then post it here and work on a formal appeal, knowing that you may well have to go to adjudication. If you get to thinking of it that way then the 'discount' bribe doesn't even have any bearing on the matter. You jump through their hoops until you win, as most posters here do in the end.

Incandescent

Fri, 21 Sep 2012 - 21:06

Mark-D

Mon, 1 Oct 2012 - 07:55

VICTORY!!!

Without a second appeal as well! All I did was send an information request on the 19th Sep asking for a list of roads the CPZ covered. Knowing that in 2005 Kylemore Way was not on there. I never received this information but I did get my ticket cancelled! I guess it still isn't on there and they knew what was coming.
Its so dodgy! If I’m ever there again on Match day and see people with tickets i'll certainly let them know to fight it. Its a con!

Thank you all for you comments and help on this matter.

Council 0 - Common Sense 1!

bama

Mon, 1 Oct 2012 - 19:49

publicise this widely.
money taken thus is clearly unlawful IMO (until they fix the CPZ)
print a fill in the blanks challenge and put a photocopy in every 'yellow packet of joy' that you see.

post it up on club fan site(s) ?

Mark-D

Wed, 3 Oct 2012 - 07:02

QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 1 Oct 2012 - 20:49)

Good idea. I was going to do that with the tickets for sure. I'm going for the Champions Leuge match tonight so will keep an eye out. Only the 3rd time going the game and the route in is clearly dodgy!
They have even put the little signs up in a CAR PARK for a conveniance store!!

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