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Nomoremoney
Currently working in Southend civic centre. I'm an electrician and a number of floors are getting a reffurb. Behind Southend civic centre is the old east Essex college which has a large car park. The college is now closed and the building totally unused, but the car park is used by the civic centre staff and used to be us construction workers aswell. We used the car park for around 10 weeks then one day every constructors car/van where ticketed for being in a permit holders area. The civic centre staff all had old permits in the windscreen all out of date some as far back as 2009. The signs in the car park are also old. From when the car park was for the college.

Nearly every one that got ticketed that day has paid up but I'm trying to help one of my friends get his canceled. We already made an Informal appeal about parking there for so long and the fact NO ONE had a valid permit and the picked and chose who they gave a ticket. Just had the reply saying they have all payed for new permits they just haven't been issued yet. Which I think is a load of smelly b******* .

Would this car park require permit area signs the same as a street or can they use any old thing left there. I'm not even sure if they have the authority to ticket here as I think it's owned by Essex college still. They only ticketed that one day and haven't been back since we all think it was just to scare us into parking else where. Iv still been parking there the last 3 weeks with nothing. Also the ticketing day in question they sent 4 ticket nazis to get in and out fast.

Any tips would help cheers
SchoolRunMum
You haven't said the most important thing - who issued the ticket and is it a real Penalty Charge Notice (Council) or a fake Parking Charge Notice? (any private company).

If it's the latter then I am sorry but all those fools who have paid up have mistaken a piece of paper impersonating a parking ticket, as a real one. Those who have not paid should stop thinking they can 'appeal' and just ignore the letters, play snap with them against the link shown under the sticky thread 'PPC letter chains'. You are on the wrong part of the forum if this is a private ticket, hence the lack of responses to your post. We have a separate private parking tickets forum where you will see that everyone is told the same thing, i.e. 'ignore it.'

If this is a real Penalty Charge from a Council then please post up your PCN in a reply here as this is the Council PCN forum.
Bagshot
Hereabouts?

As SRM says, council parking ticket or not? I suspect not.
desktop_demon
One just has to think this is just a silly campaign against motorists. I'd be tempted to stencil "Polite Car" on the side of my vehicle before leaving - on the hunch they couldn't actually read and might be fooled. It worked with the out of date "permits" ...
Nomoremoney
Southend council. I'm working in Southend council civic centre. They are claiming it is there car park. It's beIng called civic east car park on the pcn.

My friend went to ask for a copy of the tro/ parking Placement order after work today don't know if he got anything yet. I have pics of sign but can't upload from iPhone.
SchoolRunMum
OK when you can upload your pics please include photos of both sides of your PCN.

Really surprised it's a Council ticket from the description of events and place but let's see if you can appeal it and win in the end then.
Nomoremoney
I don't have the pcn I can get the nto when it arrives and the letter of rejection. Like I said above this isn't my ticket it's a friend in work. His misplaced the original pcn. Would a sign in a car park telling you it's permit holders only need to be the same as a permit only sign on a road??
bama
need to see the PCN (can you get friend to scan/pic and email it to you - Both sides of it)
an pics of the signs

else its guesswork
Nomoremoney
Click to view attachment

this is a picture of one of the signs in the car park. all signs in car park are the same as this.

like i said above not my pcn and my friend cant find original. i went back to work there 4 days after everyone was ticketed. iv asked him to look as i know how you guys operate, due to using you for about 8 other tickets of my own that where all cancelled (old username stupidly didnt hide my identity so created new one)

@bagshot the link you posted is the east essex college building but thats its visitors car park at the front. heres an arial view of the area. i feel the out of date permits are for southend civic centers pay and display car park which iv marked.

Click to view attachment
hcandersen
At least post the council's response;
QUOTE
Just had the reply saying they have all payed for new permits they just haven't been issued yet.


We've no idea regarding timings or their position which as per bama means there's not a lot we can do.

Suggest your friend does some research, for example here's the council's parking web site with all car parks listed, both council and private.

http://www.southend.gov.uk/info/200072/parking


HCA
Nomoremoney
im not suggesting the ticket was issued outside of the times the car park is enforcable on sign. im saying i dont think this is even there car park and the signs are wrong even if it is theres. where would the time of ticket issue come into that? the car park isnt listed on southends car park list any where. could no one even say if the sign looks right?
hcandersen
Post the council's reply please.

There are no prescribed signs for off-street car parks.

If the council's reply states it's a car park covered by an order made under section 32 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, then you should ask them for a copy of that order.

Your friend has got float time as regards progression of this "notice", so he should use it by asking questions of the council.

HCA
Nomoremoney
There was nothing in the rejection about section 32. They did say he only had two options thought Which I know not to be try. Either pay now or wait for nto before writing to us again.

Also I'm not sure if you could describe it as off street as on maps it seems to be great easten road????
hcandersen
Are you going to post their reply?

HCA
Nomoremoney
I fill like I'm stuck on repeat. This isn't my ticket I'm post for someone at work il try and get it tuesday but no pcn. He went in to the civic centre yesterday to get any documentation about the car park. I don't work weekends so won't see him till Tuesday
bama
we are all in hiatus due to that.

does he have email ?
Nomoremoney
His been into the civic centre twice now asking to see any orders about said car park. They are telling him he needs to put it in writing. Are these not public documents viewable by anyone on the day??? He has an email from them saying he has to write to ask for an appointment to see any order. Should that be the case???
Nomoremoney
Iv got the notice of rejection of him today so il up load it tonight iv also got pic of another sign I found. I went in to the civic centre myself today to try and get hold of any order about the car park they told me there isn't one because it's a privet car park. So I asked them which regulation they where issuing tickets under for a privet car park and they wouldn't tell me.

So should they have an order for a council run car park they said it doesn't need one because it isn't open to the public, but it's only enforced between 8am-6pm

What regs if any do they need to abide by.

Should this now be treated as a privet ticket, as it's for a privet car park??
orford
They're right in as much as they don't need a Parking Place Order for a private car park, but they do need a PPO in order to issue PCN's that are enforceable.

Since they have rejected your appeal, you need to wait for the NTO and make a formal representation that the contravention did not occur on the basis that there is no off-street Parking Places Order in place for that carpark.

I've just noticed you say the PCN mention Civic Centre East. They do have a PPO. See here:

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/default.aspx

Scroll down left to Southend-on-Sea and then SS027, then page 17

However there remains the question whether the carpark you parked is actually Civic Centre East or somewhere else
bama
QUOTE
they said it doesn't need one because it isn't open to the public


wot orford said. they do need one to issue PCNs

sans a PPO (and a valid one at that) all PCNs issued there would be ultra vires and therefor unlawful.

add a breakdown of your costs at the next stage and all following stages (if any) and quote Chase v Westminster
orford
Just in case you missed the edit to my previous post:

I've just noticed you say the PCN mention Civic Centre East. They do have a PPO. See here:

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/default.aspx

Scroll down left to Southend-on-Sea and then SS027, then page 17

However there remains the question whether the carpark you parked is actually Civic Centre East or somewhere else
Nomoremoney
Yeah that is the car park. I was thinking about going back in there tomorrow and asking for it again, as far as they know they don't have one and when they state this again il ask them to say it in an email. Already have one email from them saying I couldn't see orders with out appointment.

Just looked through ppo. The part about the amount the penalty charge will be. It say It will cost £60. His pcn said 35 paid in first 14 days and 70 if paid after. So that's wrong. Il keep looking through.

Thanks for find that it's very helpful, cheers.
SchoolRunMum
I would ask them for the current applicable Order with all maps and amendments and wave a copy of the email saying 'you can't see Orders without an appopintment'; tell them politely but firmly that they are already in statutory failure by trying to delay your right to simply view and have a copy on request, of a public document. Suggest it's time for the clerk to phone the legal dept if he/she still thinks they don't have to give you the Order on request...tell them you'll sit down and wait while they sort it out...!
Nomoremoney
@ schoolrunmum. That is what I did yesterday. I even read the guy the a quote from the legislation.gov.uk website Bama posted. I was put on hold a lot why they worked out what I said. This is when they informed me there was no order as one was not needed due to it being a staff car park. ( just so there's no confusion I went there to speak to someone in person but they make you sit down and call the department, easier for them to fob you off)
SchoolRunMum
You can only be issued with a PCN if you have contravened a Traffic Order. If they say there's no traffic order then you say back, that the PCN is a nullity so cancel it.
hcandersen
No PCN posted; no reply from the council posted.

We're being sent in circles as we don't even know what we're dealing with.

Is your friend still within a discount period, we don't know?
Perhaps he's received a Notice to Owner?

This debate about is it or isn't it doesn't really seem to be getting us very far.

HCA
Bagshot
QUOTE (orford @ Thu, 30 Aug 2012 - 16:12) *
Just in case you missed the edit to my previous post:

I've just noticed you say the PCN mention Civic Centre East. They do have a PPO. See here:

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/default.aspx

Scroll down left to Southend-on-Sea and then SS027, then page 17

However there remains the question whether the carpark you parked is actually Civic Centre East or somewhere else

Nice detective work orford. If the Aerial view in post #9 is correct, then "Land to the east of Civic Centre" is stretching the description of the location somewhat.
Nomoremoney
I
Nomoremoney
Apologies as far as posting notice of rejection and other pics don't mean to waste any ones time had a very busy week. Civic east is the car park shown in post nine ( arial view) and is the car park mentioned in ppo. Sorry I haven't posted all official letter this isn't my pcn so I'm getting documents in drips and drabs but still trying to give as much info as I can.
hcandersen
But to what end?

We don't know where we are in the process other than we presume that a NTO has not been served. And if your friend is o/s the discount, then we should just wait for the NTO because this will tell us what the contravention is and where the council claim it was committed - two details which we still don't know.

HCA
bama
+1
Nomoremoney






we are outside of the discount and waiting for nto, the location is civic centre car park east. my friend hasnt got original pcn saddly he lost it


(edit to make nor bigger)
SchoolRunMum
The signs are rubbish! Not only is one unreadable and old but both of them say that you could be issued with a 'Parking Charge' of £70 which would lead you to believe you were in a private car park. And yet they are issuing real PCNs here?
Nomoremoney
Indeed. Which is why I thought it belonged to Southend college from the order already found date 2005 it appears not. In that order it say the fine is £60 so if they have been doing there jobs right (don't laugh) then there should be something after it. They claim there isn't and has never been an order but there must have been an other before 2005 for it to be consolidated in anew one dated2005. Also the nor says "althought I appreciate that you did not intentionally breach the traffic regulation order". Which one would that be????? Also does there need to be a name on the nor. I mean if I have a complaint who do I complain about. This is a civil servent aren't they ment to be accountable and not anonymous??
hcandersen
I really do think you ought to step back and see what's happening and what your friend can do about it and the process they will have to follow to the inevitable conclusion that the PCN is cancelled.

The council have served a PCN in respect of a so-called off-street area which they claim is authorised and regulated by an order made under sections 32 and 35 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 - they don't have to say this explicitly but this is the only legal basis for their PCN.

QUOTE
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
35A Offences and proceedings in connection with parking places provided under s. 32 or 33.

(1)In the event of any contravention of, or non-compliance with, a provision of an order under section 35(1) above, the person responsible shall be guilty of an offence.


Traffic Management Act 2004
Parking contraventions outside Greater London

4(1)Outside Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if it is stationary in circumstances in which any of the offences listed below is committed.
(2)The offences are—

(d)an offence under section 35A(1), 47(1) or 53(5) or (6) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (offences in connection with parking places);


So that's the council's burden: to prove that there is an order; that it regulates the area in the way they claim; and that notice of these restrictions was conveyed to motorists considering using the site.

We doubt the order and its contents, and as for conveying accurate info, that's b******s.

But you and your friend writing about what the council have done is not going to change history: the PCN's been served and you are now in a process which you have to recognise and comply with.

Wait for the NTO, assemble your arguments; make reps; wait for the council's reply, which if a rejection means you're off to adjudication (whether you'd get there is another matter because on the basis of what's been posted they'd be foolish to expose their stupidity to and adj, you would also claim costs).

But you must comply with the process - endless posts about why you are where you are and it isn't fair are not going to change anything, I'm afraid.

Step by step.

HCA
Nomoremoney
I understand how the process works as iv said iv already won a number of my own cases with the help of the site.
I have only been posting to reply to questions or ask them.
To say what happened before doesn't matter seems very strange surely "what happened before" is very important. It's more then likely going to be a basis of our argument, withers there is a lack of tro or they are refusing in us access.

At the moment the is no nto to comply with a pcn was served which my friend challenged, the challenge was rejected so now yes I am posting on here and asking questions about what has happened. I also haven't posted once saying this isn't fair I really don't know how that has come across.
hcandersen
But we've identified all the substantive issues and so all one can do is wait as the penalty is at the full level.

When the NTO arrives the arguments are made and the issue of the order is resolved by requiring the council to provide this and photos of the signs with which a motorist is required to comply in its response to the reps should they refuse to accept them.

It's their burden to produce the order and the signs, not yours.

HCA
Nomoremoney
NTO arrived couple of days ago. any one notice anything wrong??



SchoolRunMum
Can't see any flaws on the NTO. So now just revisit all the advice so far and draft a formal appeal. Post it here first for any more advice.
Nomoremoney
im not 100% sure which way i should go in terms of the appeal. there telling me they have no order but on here one has been found. althought if its the one in current use for said car park then the fines on pcns are more then on ppo. i have proof of them refusing to let us see orders with out appointment which i will use but not sure which direction to go. also have unreadable sign and confusing ones. on top of that out of date permits in use.
hcandersen
You appear to be trying to dance around the elephant in the room by introducing issues such as apparently unrecorded and uncorroborated phones calls with nameless individuals at the council regarding whether they said there's an order or not which governs this area.

There is evidence that the council claim there is an order because that's included in their rejection of the challenge.

It's been suggested that reps are made on the basis that the contravention did not occur because:
i. there isn't an order, and if there is
ii. it doesn't establish the restriction that's allegedly been contravened, and even if it does
iii. the council failed to place notices to warn motorists of these restrictions and the penalties to which they would be subject should they contravene the restrictions.

If the council disagree then you require them to:
provide a copy of the order;
provide photos which prove that signs detailing these restrictions and penalties were posted in the car park where a diligent motorist would see them.

And as regards the NTO, if you've posted everything then your friend is home and dry, but I suspect you've not.

The regs provide that:
(3) A notice to owner served under regulation 19 of the General Regulations that's thismust, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under that regulation, include the following information—

(a)that representations on the basis specified in regulation 4 against payment of the penalty charge may be made to the enforcement authority, but that any representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded; OK
(b)the nature of the representations which may be made under regulation 4; OK
©the address (including if appropriate any email address or FAX telephone number, as well as the postal address) to which representations must be sent and the form in which they must be made; ??
(d)that if representations which have been made—
(i)within the payment period; or
(ii)outside that period but not disregarded,are not accepted by the enforcement authority the recipient of the notice may appeal against the authority’s decision to an adjudicator ??
(e)in general terms, the form and manner in which an appeal may be made. ?


HCA
Nomoremoney
I posted all pages that came with nto. Only the 3 pages posted where in envolop.
hcandersen
Then they're dead.

What about the reverse of pages?

What's missing is so basic and so fatal that it beggars belief that this could be part of their printed material, but it's not impossible. Perhaps only 3 of 4 pages were placed in the envelope "stuffer", in which case there could be thousands of faulty NTOs in the city.

HCA
Nomoremoney
Got my friend to bring in nto today. He was right that there where only 3 pages.... But he didn't check the other side. Will post tonight. Only two sentences about independent appeal which your see tonight.
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