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MD1992
Hi all.

This is a funny one, and I imagine that LCC will stick to their guns and not budge, but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of how to contest a parking charge I received the other day. The issue I have is that the pricing structure is illogical, unclear and unfair.

I parked in a LCC "pay and display" car park (off road) at 1712 hours and paid £2, since the tariff stated £1.70 was the price for "up to 1 hour". Fair enough, you would think, I have paid until 1812. At 1730, however, a £2 "evening tariff" comes into force (I didn't notice this sign as it's a piece of paper attached above the machine I used to pay).

When I returned to my car at 1812 I had been given a parking penalty charge for "parking after the expiry of paid for time", despite my stay being only 1 hour. The charge notice, incidentally, was timed at 1806 (clearly they come round immediately after 1800, for the reasons I shall now explain).

Having returned to the site, I've noted that beneath the "evening tariff" price list is a notice stating that if your stay spans 1730, you must pay each element of your parking stay separately. In other words, I think I was supposed to pay £3.70 if I wished to stay beyond 1730. Completely stupid in my view. The cost of "spanning" the 1730 cut-off point is higher than the day-time rate!

Unfortunately, because I was in a rush, I didn't notice that the time on the ticket I bought had stated a 1742 expiry time.

The illogical nature of this pricing structure is illustrated best by considering the following examples: 1) a stay from 17:29 - 17:31 (2 minutes) = £3.70; 2) a stay from 17:30 - 22:00 (4 hours 30 minutes) = £2.

Can anyone help please?
Thanks.

Link to the price list for Leeds City Council (top line "Markets" is where I received the ticket)...

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/docs/2.%20Car%20pa...202011%20v2.pdf
makara
Scan (or photograph) and post up ALL sides of the Ticket (and/or any other paperwork received)

- edit out your personal details and your car reg. and the Ticket number (from the SCANNED version ONLY - do NOT amend anything on the original hard-copy PCN or other original paperwork!) before uploading.
bama
and pics of the sign(s)
SchoolRunMum
We do need to see your documents, no need for a scanner, close-up photos posted here is fine (see the FAQs, 'How to post pictures').

But we have had several successful cases like this before. I searched the forum for the unusual keyword 'tariff' and found this one for starters:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=67071

Different Counil but similar problem. Read it to the end and see the letter the OP sent, which got the daft ticket cancelled. Draft your own version of an appeal and post it here first for comments when you also show us your photos.
Bluedart

Apart from items requested by others on this site, you need also to bring it to the attention of your local councillor. After all, it is councillors that set up the policies for officers to implement. If the officers have got it wrong - complain.
MD1992
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 22 Aug 2012 - 22:56) *
We do need to see your documents, no need for a scanner, close-up photos posted here is fine (see the FAQs, 'How to post pictures').

But we have had several successful cases like this before. I searched the forum for the unusual keyword 'tariff' and found this one for starters:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=67071

Different Counil but similar problem. Read it to the end and see the letter the OP sent, which got the daft ticket cancelled. Draft your own version of an appeal and post it here first for comments when you also show us your photos.

Thanks for that link. I've read the Swindon case and it does indeed look similar.
The parking meters seem incapable of dealing with a change over from day time rates to evening rates!

Appeal letter drafted on the basis of the £2 covering 1 hour in accordance with the pre-1730 tariff (£1.70).
AND, parking meters not being fit for purpose because they do not print tickets in accordance with the price list - i.e how can £2 equate to half an hour's parking (as printed on the ticket)?

I'll keep the forum posted.
Hippocrates
Page 2 of the PCN is pants but you do not seem to wish to show it?
MD1992
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 26 Aug 2012 - 23:13) *
Page 2 of the PCN is pants but you do not seem to wish to show it?

Sorry, you've lost me.
bama
show the obverse/other side/page 2/ of the PCN
as hip thinks it will be crap pants
hcandersen
According to LCC's 2011 tariffs, there's also a 1/2 hr charge of £1.00. I suspect that the m/c do not give change and this probably accounts for your problem;

£2 bought you 1/2 hr (17.12 - 17.42) for £1, therefore leaving you £1 in credit. As this was insufficient to purchase the evening tariff, your ticket expired at 17.42.

Ultimately, the council could fall back on the line that it's the motorist's duty to check the expiry time on their ticket, notwithstanding the inequity of what you've described. We could really do with a view of the tariff etc. board by the m/c you used and the reverse side of your PCN which often contains "get out of jail" defects.

HCA
Incandescent
QUOTE
I parked in a LCC "pay and display" car park (off road) at 1712 hours and paid £2, since the tariff stated £1.70 was the price for "up to 1 hour". Fair enough, you would think, I have paid until 1812. At 1730, however, a £2 "evening tariff" comes into force (I didn't notice this sign as it's a piece of paper attached above the machine I used to pay).


All fairness suggests that motorists parking before 17.30 should get what they pay for at the time they park, and those parking after 17.30 the same. So you could correctly assume you would get one hour for your £2, and no more. Those parking after 17.30 would get much longer. In my view the machine is programmed incorrectly, but only the TMO will give chapter and verse. Even so, if the council reject your appeal you really do need to go to adjudication. How this could be regarded as a fair and simple system is beyond me, and hopefully, an adjudicator.
Hippocrates
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...rt=#entry686631

We are still waiting for page 2. wub.gif
MD1992
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 15:37) *
show the obverse/other side/page 2/ of the PCN
as hip thinks it will be crap pants

OK, will try to post up tomorrow. Think it's just standard printed wording which won't help anyway.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 17:57) *
According to LCC's 2011 tariffs, there's also a 1/2 hr charge of £1.00. I suspect that the m/c do not give change and this probably accounts for your problem;

£2 bought you 1/2 hr (17.12 - 17.42) for £1, therefore leaving you £1 in credit. As this was insufficient to purchase the evening tariff, your ticket expired at 17.42.

Ultimately, the council could fall back on the line that it's the motorist's duty to check the expiry time on their ticket, notwithstanding the inequity of what you've described. We could really do with a view of the tariff etc. board by the m/c you used and the reverse side of your PCN which often contains "get out of jail" defects.

HCA

Can't follow any logic to what you're suggesting there - £1 is half hour price pre-1730. So why not give me the 1 hour price of £1.70 since I gave the machine £2?
My ticket should have cut-off at 1730, not 1742, if there are two pricing elements as seems to be the case here.
Hippocrates
OK, then. That's the end of my advice on this thread.
MD1992
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 26 Aug 2012 - 23:13) *
Page 2 of the PCN is pants but you do not seem to wish to show it?



QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 15:37) *
show the obverse/other side/page 2/ of the PCN
as hip thinks it will be crap pants

Now added, as requested. wink.gif
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 23:06) *




This link already posted applies, then.
MD1992
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 29 Aug 2012 - 20:01) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 23:06) *




This link already posted applies, then.

Meaning, sit tight for now?
The case referenced doesn't seem to have been resolved.
SchoolRunMum
The case referenced is one of many and the points are worth including in your formal appeal in due course. A flawed PCN is a flawed PCN, don't dismiss it.

But as long as you have submitted your informal challenge (and included a postal address, if you appealed by email, and got an email receipt?) then wait and see what response you get.
hcandersen
Don't blame messengers for their messages. I only put forward a possible reason for the events, I didn't say I agreed with them.

But, contrary to other advice, I would definitely not take this to adj only on this point: the motorist's duty is to check the expiry time on their ticket, not to assume: it's a mechanical device and could make a range of mistakes. I cannot see an adj allowing an appeal solely on the basis of you forgetting to check the ticket. It is not the purpose of tribunals or courts to interfere in the decisions of councils, however illogical they might appear and therefore their tariff is their tariff. However, if this is not communicated properly on the tariff board, which we've still not seen, then that's another matter.

HCA
MD1992
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 30 Aug 2012 - 09:16) *
Don't blame messengers for their messages. I only put forward a possible reason for the events, I didn't say I agreed with them.

But, contrary to other advice, I would definitely not take this to adj only on this point: the motorist's duty is to check the expiry time on their ticket, not to assume: it's a mechanical device and could make a range of mistakes. I cannot see an adj allowing an appeal solely on the basis of you forgetting to check the ticket. It is not the purpose of tribunals or courts to interfere in the decisions of councils, however illogical they might appear and therefore their tariff is their tariff. However, if this is not communicated properly on the tariff board, which we've still not seen, then that's another matter.

HCA

OK, I understand your points, although I disagree with the ticket expiring at 1742 - since this is after 1730 the machine has used a daytime tariff beyond the evening cut-off, however not given an hour which would have cost £1.70 at daytime rates. They can't have it both ways.

Any indication of the 'get out of jail' defects you allude to?
MD1992
Received letter in post today, cancelling the PCN. smile.gif
No admission of machines being faulty or pricing unclear, but as others have said, more cash was required in order to span the evening cut-off time.

Still, ticket should have expired at 1730 in that case since that is the cut-off time.
Never seen anything so illogical but you live and learn.
makara
Well done - excellent work!
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