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Rubybeaux
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2012
Date of the NIP: - 14 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 17 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A75 Gretna -Stranraer road near to Cally Park, Gatehouse of Fleet
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Company vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 9
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Came over the brow of a very steep hill, 3 lane road, middle lane for climbing.
Descent was probably 0.25miles. Mobile camera van 200 yards past the bottom of incline.
NIP states 66 in a 50.
The road is a 60mph, but the van I was in was over 2 tonne, so it had a 10mph deduction. I was unaware of this at the time, I thought the rule applied to transits and above (my van is smaller).
Sat nav was saying 63 mph, thought I be fine as I thought it was a 60 (as per sat nav info).
I have 9points, and drive for a living. 3 are due to expire on the 30/11/12.
If this has timed out, it's important that I challenge it for obvious reasons.
Posted from Scotland on the 14th day, a Friday, to get to head office in Wiltshire.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Do nothing!

    The police are not requesting the information from you, they are requesting it from the person the NIP is addressed to.
    Wait until you receive a NIP addressed to you personally, then come back here.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:19:46 +0000
Gan
If it's a lease vehicle your company may not be first in the chain.

You don't explain how you came to be in possession of it but you must NOT respond yourself. It's the job of a company officer to return it naming you.

One thought that springs to mind as the offence was in Scotland is the unsigned option. When you receive your own NIP you return it naming yourself but don't sign it. This means that it can't be used in court.

In England this would result in an S172 prosecution but it hasn't been tested in Scotland. They police would ask their English colleagues to visit to clear up this minor problem but they may not try too hard and if you're always on the road they may not find you at home.
Rubybeaux
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 20:38) *
If it's a lease vehicle your company may not be first in the chain.

You don't explain how you came to be in possession of it but you must NOT respond yourself. It's the job of a company officer to return it naming you.

One thought that springs to mind as the offence was in Scotland is the unsigned option. When you receive your own NIP you return it naming yourself but don't sign it. This means that it can't be used in court.

In England this would result in an S172 prosecution but it hasn't been tested in Scotland. They police would ask their English colleagues to visit to clear up this minor problem but they may not try too hard and if you're always on the road they may not find you at home.

Sorry, I should have added, our head office is Wiltshire, the depot for our region are in Scotland and I live there also.

The Police sent the NIP direct to our head office as they are the registered keeper of the vehicle. I have a copy of the letter.
Dated Friday, possibly delivered Saturday, but not received by office staff until this morning
mrh3369
Don't forget that the day of the offence is day 0 not day 1 but if it is the first NIP and it's dated even on day 13 then it would be deemed served 2 working days later so it would appear to be timed out, you must check that this was indeed the first NIP and that the vehicles are owned and registered to the companies head office address and not leased.
Rubybeaux
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 21:15) *
Don't forget that the day of the offence is day 0 not day 1 but if it is the first NIP and it's dated even on day 13 then it would be deemed served 2 working days later so it would appear to be timed out, you must check that this was indeed the first NIP and that the vehicles are owned and registered to the companies head office address and not leased.

Thanks or the reply.
I've taken the day of the offence as zero, it would be 15 days including the 27th.
The NIP states "You are recorded as being the register keeper/new owner/hirer of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence...."
I have taken from that, that they were the first correspondence
mrh3369
Take nothing for granted and check to be 100% sure, it's very important that you establish that this indeed the first NIP and that the company owns the vehicle and holds the v5c with the details on it the same as on the NIP.
Rubybeaux
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 21:31) *
Take nothing for granted and check to be 100% sure, it's very important that you establish that this indeed the first NIP and that the company owns the vehicle and holds the v5c with the details on it the same as on the NIP.

I will get onto that first thing in the morning.
Thanks for your help.
Transit man
What EXACTLY is the make, model & specification of the van? There are some exemptions, ie, having rear seats, windows or dual purpose vehicles that are not subject to the lower limits.

Of course, the problem is, 66 is still over the limit for cars, but would (probably) not have resulted in an Nip as being under the threshold.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Rubybeaux @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 21:28) *
The NIP states "You are recorded as being the register keeper/new owner/hirer of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence...."

So if a lease company replied then the police would then have your company 'recorded as' one of those.......far from meaningful
Rubybeaux
QUOTE (Transit man @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 09:21) *
What EXACTLY is the make, model & specification of the van? There are some exemptions, ie, having rear seats, windows or dual purpose vehicles that are not subject to the lower limits.

Of course, the problem is, 66 is still over the limit for cars, but would (probably) not have resulted in an Nip as being under the threshold.

Not 100% sure, I'll find out exactly.
Think it's a Fiat Scudo! But converted to have a separated refrigerated box which stands approx 1ft taller than 3 seater cab

QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 21:31) *
Take nothing for granted and check to be 100% sure, it's very important that you establish that this indeed the first NIP and that the company owns the vehicle and holds the v5c with the details on it the same as on the NIP.

Unfortunately company are not the registered owners, leased, and the leasing company received NIP within 4 days.
I doubt I'm for court to plead for leniency
jimster
Have you considered going "unsigned"?



Rubybeaux
QUOTE (jimster @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:40) *
Have you considered going "unsigned"?

What happens if I don't sign it?
Gan
QUOTE (Rubybeaux @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (jimster @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:40) *
Have you considered going "unsigned"?

What happens if I don't sign it?

As per my post #2

If you return it without signing you've fulfilled your requirement to name the driver but without the signature they can't use it as evidence of the driver in court

In England this would result in an S172 not-naming prosecution but so far they haven't tested this in Scotland
Rubybeaux
QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 21:04) *
QUOTE (Rubybeaux @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (jimster @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:40) *
Have you considered going "unsigned"?

What happens if I don't sign it?

As per my post #2

If you return it without signing you've fulfilled your requirement to name the driver but without the signature they can't use it as evidence of the driver in court

In England this would result in an S172 not-naming prosecution but so far they haven't tested this in Scotland

I can't imagine they would leave it at that.
Has this worked previously?
sgtdixie
Good news and bad news potentially

The good news is currently no one has been prosecuted for failing to supply name when they have gone unsigned. Therefore going down this route may mean you get away with this.

The bad news is that there is likely to be a cop calling to ask you to your face if you were driving. There are many different beliefs about what to do if they find you and others will explain. The 2nd piece of possibly bad news is it is likely at some stage that the PF will pursue such a prosecution and if the courts follow the English example the outcome will be a FTF conviction. Hasn't happened yet but that doesn't mean it won't.
3phase278
Further to Gan's post above, just be aware that you will very likely receive visits from the local polis at your home address - almost certainly if you live in Scotland. You need to be 'out' until the offence times out.

Search 'unsigned' in the top right box on this forum to read more. It's not for the faint hearted, but as you are on 9 points, in your shoes it's an option I'd consider. You need to read up on it though to understand what it entails and whether you want that hassle.

There is also the very remote possibilty that they will use you as the first test case and secure a conviction, but that's a gamble you need to understand and take.
mrh3369
Go unsigned as you will be in no worse a position if the boys in blue do catch up with you but be prepared for a few knocks on the door which you shouldn't answer and whoever does will need to say your out.
Atomic Tomato
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 22:05) *
.................... which you shouldn't answer and whoever does will need to say your out.


Would that not be purjury?
sgtdixie
no it wouldn't
Rubybeaux
Cheers guys, I'll consider that option.
stevensan
QUOTE (Rubybeaux @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 20:38) *
If it's a lease vehicle your company may not be first in the chain.

You don't explain how you came to be in possession of it but you must NOT respond yourself. It's the job of a company officer to return it naming you.

One thought that springs to mind as the offence was in Scotland is the unsigned option. When you receive your own NIP you return it naming yourself but don't sign it. This means that it can't be used in court.

In England this would result in an S172 prosecution but it hasn't been tested in Scotland. They police would ask their English colleagues to visit to clear up this minor problem but they may not try too hard and if you're always on the road they may not find you at home.

Sorry, I should have added, our head office is Wiltshire, the depot for our region are in Scotland and I live there also.

The Police sent the NIP direct to our head office as they are the registered keeper of the vehicle. I have a copy of the letter.
Dated Friday, possibly delivered Saturday, but not received by office staff until this morning


Who is it addressed to?

You?

Or the company?

If it is addressed to the company, then they must respond. If they don't, then they will be pursued for FTF. You cannot reply on their behalf.
Once they have replied naming you as the driver, then, only then can you reply...
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