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SimonT
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2012
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - a4174 Bromley Heath Bristol >>A432 Badminton Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Travelling from a 70mph dual carriage way with a central reservation to a 50mph dual carriage way with a central reservation. The carriage way is separated by a 30mph roundabout.

The NIP states I was travelling at 78mph in a 50mph limit.

At the time I was on my motorbike and not my car.

I did not notice the 50mph speed limit signs when leaving the roundabout but since returning to the scene the signs are there.

I did not see the police/camera unit (manual detection?).

The location stated on the NIP isn't very clear as the road is several miles long.

From a bit of research the road used to be 70mph but was changed a few years ago due to accidents on the roundabout. From council figures out of the 133 accidents on the road recorded in the survey 85% took place on the roundabout and not the main road.


Before finding this site I did get some information on www.motorlawyers.co.uk and they suggested the following letter (slightly ammended).

Dear Sir


Notice number:


Further to your letter of the , I confirm that I was the driver of a vehicle in the area at the time of the alleged offence and my driving licence details are:

However, I am surprised at the speed alleged and would be grateful if you could supply the following information in order to clarify matters and rule out any possible errors in the recording of the alleged speed:


1. Please inform me who the operator of the equipment at the time of the alleged offence was.

2. I would like to see all the current training and procedure certificates for the said officer.

3. Please provide identification of actual equipment used to record the alleged offence.

4. I would like to see all maintenance and calibration records for the identified equipment.

5. I would like proper documentation that states that all calibration procedures for the actual site have been actioned accordingly and noted by the equipment operator.

6. Please identify the exact location of equipment used to record the alleged offence. An extract of a local road map is enclosed for your convenience.

7. Please identify the exact position of my vehicle at the time of the alleged offence as the notice is vague as to where the incident took place. An extract of a local road map is enclosed for your convenience.

8. Please provide the photographic evidence of the alleged offence.

9. Please provide documentation that the site used was totally suitable for this type of equipment and free from any type of contamination or interference.

10. That the site used fulfils any guidelines set down in legislation, i.e. length of site, eight or more injury accidents in the preceding three years etc.

11. That the 85th percentile speed was greater than the A.C.P.O guidelines.

12. I would like a copy of the force’s procedures for the use of this equipment.

13. Please send me full details of your criteria for offering speed awareness courses as an alternative to a fixed penalty or other proceedings.

I would like the above information as soon as possible and I await your reply.


Yours faithfully


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:53:13 +0000
mrh3369
Any question in particular?
SimonT
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 16:06) *
Any question in particular?


I have read that at the alleged speed it will likely be 6 points, or a ban, and a hefty fine. If its likely to be 3 points and a small fine I would probably just take it on the chin.

Really looking for advice on real likely outcome and if it is worth fighting?

Is the suggested letter worth sending or is it too early? Should I just send a letter requesting a photograph to help identify me then request the other info later?

I presume they would have to provide all of it before a hearing?

Is it worth getting legal advice or is the cost likely to be just as much as the fine so not worth it?
BaggieBoy
Use that letter at your own peril, some of it is irrelevent, and since you are not entitled to any evidence at this stage it will probably be ignored or cause the authorities to mark you out for attention.

Likely outcome here:



Looks like a certain 6 points.
mrh3369
Yes as above 6 points, forget that letter it's nonsense and pointless and will not provide a get out.
SimonT
Magistrates' Court Penalty Guidelines
Eligible for COFP instead? No: Magistrates' court only
Points: 6
Normal fine range: £638 - £750
Disqualification possible? Consider 7-56 days
Maximum fine: £1000

Great....

Any advice?
SimonT
Ok so I just sign and return the NIP and hope?

By signing it are you admitting guilt? Don't they have to provide any proof to support their allegations or are they just hoping you will incriminate yourself by signing and returning?

I was going to ask for the photograph just in case it helps.

Is it worth putting any covering letter with the NIP?

I presume that as a fixed penalty has not been enclosed this will be going to the magistrates court?
Rallyman72
Completing the NIP is not an admission of guilt - it merely identifies the driver.

If you want to ask for photographs do NOT ask for photographic evidence, only ask for a picture to assist in identifying the driver. If you ask for evidence it will be denied.

A letter with the NIP may, depending on the wording, be construed as failing to reply to the NIP and will result in 6 points and a fine of up to £1000. Unfortunately the insurance companies look on this as a far more serious failing compared to speeding.

I am not sure if Avon and Somerset use a combined NIP and COFP (some forces do but not most from what I am led to believe) but usually, I believe, the COFP follows identification of the driver. I am sure some of the regulars on here will confirm or correct this in due course.
mrh3369
I think the speed in this case is beyond where a cofp will be offered but if it is grab it.
SimonT
Ok so request photographic evidence "to assist with identification of the rider" and on its receipt complete the NIP.

Wait and hope for a fixed panalty.

If no FP - request proof that I was speeding?

Grovel in court.
scottishpoet
Better not to use the word evidence

"Please can you provide photographs to assist with identification of the rider"

is better
Logician
That letter is appalling!!!!
little-freddie
.....&, come what may,... fill in, & I.D. driver in the specified 28 days,... Failure to furnish charge may ensue otherwise,... which is 6 points, Big fine,.. and nasty insurance code for 5 years.,... :-(

[Seems, they have got you, one way or the other these days, unless you are lucky/they cock up......]

Good luck, Fred
SimonT
Thanks for all the help.

So just to clarify I will request a photograph "to assist with the identification of the rider".

On receipt of which I will complete and send the NIP.

If I receive a FP cough up and put it down to a bad day.

If I have to attend court do I do one or both of the following?

1. Request copies of their evidence, training, calibration certs etc and hope they have made a hash of it.

2. Prepare a good mitigation letter.

Cheers,

Si
Durzel
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:29) *
Thanks for all the help.

So just to clarify I will request a photograph "to assist with the identification of the rider".

On receipt of which I will complete and send the NIP.

Don't wait beyond the 28 days you have been given to name the rider to receive a photograph though. If you don't receive one in a timely manner you can ring them up and re-request it, but you are obliged to name the rider within that time period and failure to do so will put you in line for a S172 "Failure to Furnish" charge.

Preparing a good mitigation statement is wise, but regards the rest of the stuff I have to be blunt and ask - do you know the significance (or lack thereof) of what you're requesting? Do you know to what level training is required, how often, etc? Pitching up and demanding to know if someone regularly dusts the speed camera with a Home Office approved cloth (i.e. like that letter does in the main) isn't going to get you anywhere really. A photograph is probably your best bet for identifying any clear discrepancy.
SimonT
QUOTE (Durzel @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:35) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:29) *
Thanks for all the help.

So just to clarify I will request a photograph "to assist with the identification of the rider".

On receipt of which I will complete and send the NIP.

Do you know to what level training is required, how often, etc? Pitching up and demanding to know if someone regularly dusts the speed camera with a Home Office approved cloth (i.e. like that letter does in the main) isn't going to get you anywhere really. A photograph is probably your best bet for identifying any clear discrepancy.


My bestest buddy is an ex traffic officer for Avon and Somerset and said he is happy to provide anything I need to know.....
baggins1234
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 15:53) *
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - a4174 Bromley Heath Bristol >>A432 Badminton Road


Can you confirm you were actually travelling as per the direction on the NIP i.e away from the M32 towards Emersons Green/Bath?
SimonT
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:05) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 15:53) *
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - a4174 Bromley Heath Bristol >>A432 Badminton Road


Can you confirm you were actually travelling as per the direction on the NIP i.e away from the M32 towards Emersons Green/Bath?


I am just trying to confirm that. Problem is I went both ways so came back the same way. Given the time I would say I was on my way back towards the M32 but cant be 100% sure.
SimonT
UPDATE

I spoke to a nice young lady in the SEU who is posting the photographic evidence to me by first class today so I can identify who the rider was. (It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?)

She also gave me the following information.

It was a single civilian operator (though an ex policeman).

It was a safety partnership van.

It was parked a lay by marked "Police vehicles only".

I didnt want to push it so havent asked for the name of operator or the type of equipment used; I was planning to wait until I received the photo.

As its a civilian operator do I need to ask the council for details of training and calibration etc or is this still kept by the police?

I read some where on the forums that only a copper has the legal powers to establish if a vehicle is speeding or did I mis-read/understand the point?

I am Weasel
QUOTE
how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?


Surely the time of the alleged incident would be the key here. It takes several minutes to swap leathers & helmet and go out and pass the same point as where the incident occurs.

SimonT
QUOTE (I am Weasel @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 12:05) *
QUOTE
how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?


Surely the time of the alleged incident would be the key here. It takes several minutes to swap leathers & helmet and go out and pass the same point as where the incident occurs.



And I can remember what I did to the minute 2 weeks ago!? I can only just remember it was the afternoon let alone to the hour.
SimonT
QUOTE (Durzel @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:35) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:29) *
Thanks for all the help.

So just to clarify I will request a photograph "to assist with the identification of the rider".

On receipt of which I will complete and send the NIP.

but regards the rest of the stuff I have to be blunt and ask - do you know the significance (or lack thereof) of what you're requesting? Do you know to what level training is required, how often, etc? Pitching up and demanding to know if someone regularly dusts the speed camera with a Home Office approved cloth (i.e. like that letter does in the main) isn't going to get you anywhere really.


My buddy knows the operator and he says he is a miserable bugger!!

The safety partnership cars are based at the same station and they calibrate the equipment between two known points in the car park at the start and end of each shift.

So probably no get out there.
The Rookie
You'll have to convince a magistrates bench of that or you're looking at 6 points, a large fine (larger than the speeding) and a significant increase in insurance premiums......

Were I to offer you £500 for the riders name, could you do it then?

It's stretching credulaty a bit to say you happen to ride a route, then a few minutes later a friend rode exactly the same route on the same bike in the same leathers and helmet (him being the same size as you), one of you 'missed' the 50 limit the other didn't and no-one can remember who was riding.

Would your friend be prepared to go to court and take the stand and concur all this, will the video show the 'other trip' occuring?
Jlc
QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:53) *
It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?

in that case have you discussed this with the other rider? Do they have insurance for the test ride?

If you cannot determine the rider then you'll be facing a different charge - all the details of the speeding and capture etc. will not matter. You will have to take reasonable diligence to identify the rider - failure to to do so is a 6 point offence with large fine too. The insurance impact could be nasty for 5 years though.
sgtdixie
Simon

I have to tell you that a bench will simply not believe
QUOTE
(It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?)
AND
QUOTE
Problem is I went both ways so came back the same way. Given the time I would say I was on my way back towards the M32 but cant be 100% sure
SimonT
So I just have to fess up and write a good mitigation statement?

So to clarify I just return the NIP as is with no covering letter?

When I get the summons enter a guilty plea. At this stage do you send a mitigation letter or is this read out at the hearing?

Suit up, best diplomatic voice, apologise and grovel.....
baggins1234
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 15:53) *
At the time I was on my motorbike and not my car.

I did not notice the 50mph speed limit signs when leaving the roundabout but since returning to the scene the signs are there.

I did not see the police/camera unit (manual detection?).



QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:53) *
It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?


QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:39) *
I am just trying to confirm that. Problem is I went both ways so came back the same way. Given the time I would say I was on my way back towards the M32 but cant be 100% sure.




QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 22:04) *
My bestest buddy is an ex traffic officer for Avon and Somerset and said he is happy to provide anything I need to know....


Your "best buddy" will hopefully give you the short and succinct advice that probably goes along the lines of

Do NOT be an idiot and suddenly bring to the table that a friend borrowed the bike or you face going to prison for PCOJ instead of being dealt with for excess speed for which you will receive a fine and points

He may well put it more bluntly than that.

Whichever way he does put it, I suggest you listen to him
SimonT
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 15:53) *
At the time I was on my motorbike and not my car.

I did not notice the 50mph speed limit signs when leaving the roundabout but since returning to the scene the signs are there.

I did not see the police/camera unit (manual detection?).



QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:53) *
It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?


QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:39) *
I am just trying to confirm that. Problem is I went both ways so came back the same way. Given the time I would say I was on my way back towards the M32 but cant be 100% sure.




QUOTE (SimonT @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 22:04) *
My bestest buddy is an ex traffic officer for Avon and Somerset and said he is happy to provide anything I need to know....


Your "best buddy" will hopefully give you the short and succinct advice that probably goes along the lines of

Do NOT be an idiot and suddenly bring to the table that a friend borrowed the bike or you face going to prison for PCOJ instead of being dealt with for excess speed for which you will receive a fine and points

He may well put it more bluntly than that.

Whichever way he does put it, I suggest you listen to him



Yep - had that discussion.

So now just looking for the advice as per the previous post.

Cheers.
baggins1234
Well done.....you know it makes sense
justforthepictures
QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:53) *
UPDATE

I spoke to a nice young lady in the SEU who is posting the photographic evidence to me by first class today so I can identify who the rider was. (It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?)

She also gave me the following information.

It was a safety partnership van.

As its a civilian operator do I need to ask the council for details of training and calibration etc or is this still kept by the police?

I read some where on the forums that only a copper has the legal powers to establish if a vehicle is speeding or did I mis-read/understand the point?

Complete nonsense, Avon & Somerset are not in any way connected to any partnership operations, it was all over the news 18 months ago. Nothing to do with the council, you've been told fibs. I just checked the website, all certificates are here;

http://www.safecam.org.uk/DownloadableDocu...dex.aspx?cid=16
SimonT
QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 17:18) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 10:53) *
UPDATE

I spoke to a nice young lady in the SEU who is posting the photographic evidence to me by first class today so I can identify who the rider was. (It may have been one of my friends who took it for a test ride and borrowed my leathers and helmet - how are we going to remember which of us was riding at the time?)

She also gave me the following information.

It was a safety partnership van.

As its a civilian operator do I need to ask the council for details of training and calibration etc or is this still kept by the police?

I read some where on the forums that only a copper has the legal powers to establish if a vehicle is speeding or did I mis-read/understand the point?

Complete nonsense, Avon & Somerset are not in any way connected to any partnership operations, it was all over the news 18 months ago. Nothing to do with the council, you've been told fibs. I just checked the website, all certificates are here;

http://www.safecam.org.uk/DownloadableDocu...dex.aspx?cid=16



I found the link as well. The training certs only refer to collar no's; I cant see any reference to civilian operators?

UPDATE

Photo arrived in today's post as promised by the SEU.

It's me alright.

Do I now just fill in and return the NIP?

Is there any point in trying to get off on a technicality by requesting name of operator, training certs, calibration etc etc? I am guessing they won't supply anything until you enter a not guilty plea and will just fill in any required gaps in the paperwork prior to any hearing.
progbloke
QUOTE (SimonT @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 18:13) *
Is there any point in trying to get off on a technicality by requesting name of operator, training certs, calibration etc etc?


Unlikely.
SimonT
QUOTE (progbloke @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 19:03) *
QUOTE (SimonT @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 18:13) *
Is there any point in trying to get off on a technicality by requesting name of operator, training certs, calibration etc etc?


Unlikely.



So the long, short and middle of it is I just sign the NIP and hope I get a good Mag?
sgtdixie
QUOTE
fill in any required gaps in the paperwork prior to any hearing


SCP's may not be everyones cup of Tea but I have never known them risk prison for the sake of a speeding conviction.
SimonT
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:43) *
QUOTE
fill in any required gaps in the paperwork prior to any hearing


SCP's may not be everyones cup of Tea but I have never known them risk prison for the sake of a speeding conviction.


I read at least one other thread where that seemed to be the case.

Anyway can any one advise on the next step please?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (SimonT @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 21:00) *
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 20:43) *
QUOTE
fill in any required gaps in the paperwork prior to any hearing


SCP's may not be everyones cup of Tea but I have never known them risk prison for the sake of a speeding conviction.


I read at least one other thread where that seemed to be the case.

Anyway can any one advise on the next step please?


Don't believe everything you read. Just name yourself and see what they offer. At that point you can decide on fighting it or accepting whatever offer is made.
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