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lordfarquar69
Hi all and thanks for taking time out to read this as it's my first post, I recieved a pcn today for turning right into Woburn Place off the Euston road in London, I remember taking this turn last Saturday 4/8/12 and did so for a specific reason, it forms part of the oylmpic lane network and there is a temporary no right turn sign up unless bus or oylmpic traffic, now at 6.55 a.m in the morning all signs heading into London were displaying the message all vehicles can use oylimpic lanes so under that insruction I did. The contrevention code is 50r and I can post all scans if required, am I chancing an appeal or do I have a valid argument. thanks in advance
SchoolRunMum
Yes, could you post up scans of all pages of that PCN please? I have seen those signs that say 'all vehicles can use oylimpic lanes' and can see why you might do as you did.
lordfarquar69
http://s1156.photobucket.com/albums/p578/Derek_East/

Here are the scans(I Think)
qafqa
QUOTE
Here are the scans(I Think)

Hope you don't mind if I repost a direct [IMG] link your Lordship,
it is so the experts can immediately see the paperwork.
(If you want the pictures deleted from this post please say.)

In addition to being the driver of the vehicle are you also the Company Secretary?





lordfarquar69
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravelnews/r...utton-submit=Go

Here is the tfl olympic lane route as well but I can find no mention on there site as to where temporary signal turns have been implemented

No I am not the company secretary!! it came through to that name as we have hundreds of lorrys on the road, thanks for adjusting the photos I was banging my head on the table trying to get them up rather than the link.
EDW
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 13:10) *
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravelnews/r...utton-submit=Go

Here is the tfl olympic lane route as well but I can find no mention on there site as to where temporary signal turns have been implemented

No I am not the company secretary!! it came through to that name as we have hundreds of lorrys on the road, thanks for adjusting the photos I was banging my head on the table trying to get them up rather than the link.




being able to use Ol' lane does not excuse making a banned turn. The traffic orders were made weeks ago, I have seen them.

The only way you win is if the PCN is defective.
SchoolRunMum
The PCN may be flawed; also I think there's a chance this could be won on something else. It may depend on the temporary Traffic Order wording?

As the OP says, the route is part of the 'Olympic Lane network' and a sign clearly said 'all vehicles can use olympic lanes' so I can see how the decision to make the turn was made. After all, when that sign is up, all the lanes in question still have the Olympic lines on the road but we all know we can ignore them! So it's possible that a driver might draw the same inference re the temporary turn into what is an Olympic Lane?

I would look to appeal and say you require a copy of the temporary Traffic Order if they reject.

The only problem with this one beyond that, is that it's a company vehicle. Will the company let you represent them at appeal all they way to PATAS if need be? It's their PCN, their responsibility and you might spend time now appealing only to find that they pay it and dock your wages at a later stage.
lordfarquar69
My company will let me appeal as far as I wish, they always present us with pcn's first and ask us if there is any reason why and if there is any reason to appeal, normally we get them for weight restrictions but we have cause to be in the area so they appeal for us, but this one is a different ball game and they have passed it directly to me as no one in the office has come across a temporary non turn due to it being an olympic route, I was under the impression once I have made myself the driver then all further correspondance will come directly to me or do my company have to nominate me before I appeal??

londonicon
Can I take it you were travelling eastbound when you turned right? If so you might be on sticky ground as there has always been a prohibition on a right turn, its not an olympic thing.
EDW
I need to read the 2003 Act but I think that they cannot demand you sign the declaration at the bottom of page 2.

Dont know if ever tested at appeal, would like try smile.gif



The PCN is defective regarding stating the grounds:


8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a)state—
(i)the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;



Grounds are:
Prohibited turn
Location
Time and date



The location is incorrectly described.

The location was Euston Road.

it is described as 'in EUSTON RD NO RIGHT TURN INTO UPPER WOBURN PLACE'

it should say

'in Euston Road',
the use of RD is fatal.
You win I think.
londonicon
Ignore post #9 I,m talking rubbish, you have always been able to turn right.
lordfarquar69
QUOTE (londonicon @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 20:16) *
Ignore post #9 I,m talking rubbish, you have always been able to turn right.

I was thinking I've made that turn thousands of times if this were the case I could be in a whole load of trouble!!!


So EDW what and which grounds should I make representaions on(if any)
SchoolRunMum
Is this one of he TFL PCNs that has a flaw in the wording?

It's a bit late and I can't recall if this is one where they shouldn't put the 28 day period for reps and payment in one sentence on the front...looks wrong.
EDW
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 21:44) *
QUOTE (londonicon @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 20:16) *
Ignore post #9 I,m talking rubbish, you have always been able to turn right.

I was thinking I've made that turn thousands of times if this were the case I could be in a whole load of trouble!!!


So EDW what and which grounds should I make representaions on(if any)



you want gamble with appeal? TFL will reject your reps., you will have to go to patas.
lordfarquar69
So pay up and be done with it then???
EDW
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2012 - 22:09) *
So pay up and be done with it then???





I would appeal, I think they have given a shoddy road name.

Your money, your choice.

good luck
lordfarquar69
Any pointers on wording would be appriciated, and should I go on the defence for the road name wording and the olympic signage as well??
EDW
Mention what you want, as I said I think only way you win is at patas.
qafqa
The camera might not have included an image of the sign(s),
that may or may not be there. It seems an adjudicator might
expect to see evidence of the signage in place.

Case Reference: 2110441196
Appellant: Mr Xxxxxx Xxxxxx
Authority: Harrow
VRM: VV VVVVV
PCN: HRSSSSS
Contravention Date: 30 Apr 2011
Contravention Time: 14:58
Contravention Location: The Bridge
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn
Decision Date: 20 Oct 2011
Adjudicator: Michael Nathan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: This is a personal appeal attended by the Appellant. The Enforcement Authority did not appear and was not represented.

It is claimed that the Appellant's car had performed a prohibited turn - no right turn. The alleged contravention occurred at 14:58 on Saturday 30 April 2011 at The Bridge, Harrow. A Penalty Charge Notice was served by post after CCTV observation. It is not in dispute that the Appellant had made a right turn at the junction of The Bridge with George Gange Way.

I considered the parties' evidence very carefully with the Appellant, but I was unable to see any evidence of the appropriate signage being in place at the time of the alleged contravention as the CCTV footage shows the vehicle after it had made the allegedly prohibited turn. The Enforcement Authority has provided photographic evidence, but the photographs are undated.

Having carefully considered the Enforcement Authority's evidence available to me at the hearing, in particular its CCTV footage, I was unable to establish, on a balance of probabilities, that the required signs were in place at the time of the alleged contravention.

I cannot be satisfied that the Enforcement Authority's has fulfilled its statutory obligation so as to secure that the driver would have been aware of the restrictions that applied. I am not satisfied that a contravention occurred and allow the appeal.
EDW
They dont have to show you the video/stills until the hearing.
Suppose you could ask for them.
Neil B
The connection between the Olympic Lane and the turn itself; Is there one?

i.e. did the OL actually lead into this right turn?

If it did then I cant comprehend why it was being enforced other than as a deliberate trap. If the turn itself was intended to be reserved for authorised vehicles using the OL then surely there was no need for a restriction at the time.

It's a difficult argument but I wholly agree with you that the 'any vehicles allowed' (type) signs for OLs mislead you.

Now - by what authority could a vehicle use the OLs in comparison -- well, actually, none. Legally, as far as I can see, those OLs were always restricted and PCNs were not issued merely by TFL choice to not enforce. In a way, signs saying to use the OLs were not lawful since a restriction did exist.
Is enforcement of a connected restriction then fair and reasonable?

I'd have a pop at arguing you were mislead by signage as you originally suggested - although I concede this is just a tentative, common sense kinda idea.
lordfarquar69
O.K thanks all, our "company secretary" has put an appeal in today on my behalf stating three points. The first being about the signs and the leading straight into the turn and stating all traffic could use said lanes, second being Euston RD cannot be found on any maps held so a false location has been given, and thirdly at no point in the video/still can any signage be seen to show no right turn should be taken, a long shot I know but give it a go for £65..
EDW
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Wed, 15 Aug 2012 - 19:09) *
O.K thanks all, our "company secretary" has put an appeal in today on my behalf stating three points. The first being about the signs and the leading straight into the turn and stating all traffic could use said lanes, second being Euston RD cannot be found on any maps held so a false location has been given, and thirdly at no point in the video/still can any signage be seen to show no right turn should be taken, a long shot I know but give it a go for £65..



use full wording below:
EUSTON RD NO RIGHT TURN INTO UPPER WOBURN PLACE
Hippocrates
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Tue, 14 Aug 2012 - 18:43) *
Any pointers on wording would be appriciated, and should I go on the defence for the road name wording and the olympic signage as well??


hillcats thread re TfL Yellow Box Junction. Conflation of two time periods re payment and making representations. Not set in stone, I'm afraid.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://forums....hywD_DTVjuQYPeA
lordfarquar69
QUOTE (EDW @ Wed, 15 Aug 2012 - 19:37) *
QUOTE (lordfarquar69 @ Wed, 15 Aug 2012 - 19:09) *
O.K thanks all, our "company secretary" has put an appeal in today on my behalf stating three points. The first being about the signs and the leading straight into the turn and stating all traffic could use said lanes, second being Euston RD cannot be found on any maps held so a false location has been given, and thirdly at no point in the video/still can any signage be seen to show no right turn should be taken, a long shot I know but give it a go for £65..



use full wording below:
EUSTON RD NO RIGHT TURN INTO UPPER WOBURN PLACE

They are the ones who have not used full wording not me, hence why I can't find Euston Rd or upper wooburn pl on a map!!!
lordfarquar69
Hi guys, been a while and I return with surprisingly good news, my work recieved a letter yesterday with all the usual garbage about how everything ran smoothly during the olympics etc and then the icing on the cake went something like this.
The onus is on the driver to be aware of and comply with any road signs and markings. TFL is satisfied that the signage and road markings in place provided clear and sufficiant information and met statutory requirements.

However as a gesture of goodwill and because this is the first representation you have made to TFL with regard to this matter, I have decieded to cancel the penalty charge on this occasion. It must be understood that this does not form an acceptance of your representaion.

Make of that what you will, thanks guys.
bama
result

well done
EDW
nice wins lately
Incandescent
Congratulations ! It shows that just paying up without an initial appeal is not really the best option, although its the quickest.
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