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Marie_78
Hi, hoping for some help on the above.

I received a PCN dated 03/08/2012 for being in a bus lane on 17/07/2012 at 21.30hrs and they have pictures of my car.

I drive this road rather frequently and know that usually you can us the bus lane after 7pm any day and so I didn't think this was a problem. I was only in the lane for about 50 yards as I've since viewed the evidence on line as I was overtaking a car turning into a petrol station.

I am aware that the last week or so the borough has bus lane enforcements in place so you shouldn't use any bus lane at any time (I think due to the olympics even though were nowhere near any venues). But what they don't tell you is when these actually came into place. I've searched their website and cannot find anything so would like some help on finding this out. I haven't contacted them as of yet as the site tells you not to.

But I feel this is an error either as I'm not sure the enforcements had started by this date, if they had I would have followed them and not gone into the bus lane. Or because I was only in there at the end overtaking a turning car and therefore was of a minimal time.
I'd really appreciate any help on what to do.

Thanks

Marie.
The Rookie
PCN so should be in the council and decrim forum.

Please scan/photo ALL of the PCN and attach as well, a Mod will move the thread for you.
Marie_78
Ah, sorry, wasn't sure if I'd posted in the right place. I've added the PCN notice as requested.
The Rookie
No problem, the people with more familiarity of of PCN's will respond soon.
Korting
Marie,

I would edit the post where you've put the PCN on view and scrub out your personal details, the PCN number and the Car Reg Number. You should do this ASAP as Council officials and the Police are known to read these boards.

You can use something like paint to 'wipe out' your details, if you get stuck, let me know

Michael
Marie_78
All done, didn't even think about that!

Ok, so I've just found this notice on the barking and dagenham website, so i don't think I have a leg to stand on. However I still query the fact that it's such a short area of the lane I used, particularly as the bus lane line stops a little while before the colour changes. (See attached picture from google maps.

22/05/2012
Special measures will be put in place to keep major road routes running freely during the Olympic and Paralympic Games.
The steps are being taken to keep routes clear for emergency vehicles, and to remove any potential obstructions which might cause unnecessary delays.

Bus Lanes, currently operational between certain hours, will be in force 24 hours a day from 1 July to 9 September. Signage will be put up in advance to make sure motorists are aware of the change.
sgtdixie
Are here signs? Did you see them?
Marie_78
Well usually there's a sign stating the bus lane can be in use after 7pm but when I looked there today there was no such sign (but can clearly be seen on google maps currently).

There is a sign about the bus lane enforcements, but it doesn't say from what date, just that they are currently enforced and it's nowhere near this particular bus lane, in fact it's in Dagenham, not Barking.
Hippocrates
If the signage has been changed, as you seem to be implying, I would ask for the Traffic Management Order in pdf with all schedules and amendments and all still images of the contravention, and evidence of all their signs, and book an appointment to see the video. There have been other threads re this bus lane, some of them successful due to errors in their paperwork along the line i.e. if you wish to play the long game.
Marie_78
I've just been reading up on the local council site about traffic enforcements, and their document states "Under current legislation, bus lane infringements can only be enforced using CCTV equipment. It has been proven that the enforcement of bus lanes in this manner leads to a significant reduction in bus lane infringements within a few months following their introduction." The PCN I received states "This alleged contravention was seen and recorded by a road side camera at the time stated".

Is this the same as CCTV or am I clutching at straws now?!
Incandescent
OK, so they announced that bus lanes would become continuous, (24x7), but the announcement is not the law. For the new restriction to be enforced, the TRO must be updated, and the signs that indicate the restriction, else no offence has been committed. Road side cameras are the same as CCTV, but again, in order to enforce, the council must use "approved devices", they cannot just get a CEO to use a mobile phone camera.

BTW what makes the red lane in the attached pic a buslane, it looks just like red tarmac to me and nothing else ?

This thread needs moving to the Decriminalised offences forum
Hippocrates
TRO=Traffic Regulation Order i.e. outside London.

TMO=Traffic Management Order i.e. London.
kevin73
Hello Maria. I think you and me in the same boat. i got to PCN respectively 17/07 and 18/07. i really don't know what to do. this is my day to day travel route to work as they suddenly change the signs for the Olympics i suppose. so do you have any ideas share with me? please let me know. I think we should appeal this case. you could email me on dell2be@yahoo.com if you find something to resolve this.
Thanks
Kevin

you are in the wrong forum so better to be changed. my one in the correct forum you could see my case and i got some pictures yesterday and upload them.
ta
Marie_78
Hi, I realise this is in the wrong forum, but I don't know how to move the post unless I re-post in the right forum.

I'm going to ask them for the traffic Management order to see if they are in the right or not. The sign has been changed as when I went there yesterday it no longer had it's usual hours, however I don't remember seeing any notices that way about the change. I have since seen in Dagenham a notice saying that all bus lanes are in force 24/7 but I don't remember seeing one near the bus lane I was seen in. Kevin, do you remember seeing anything?

The red tarmac is outlined by a thick white line, however the thick white lines stops and turns into normal road markings, but there is a sign at that point saying the bus lane ends. I wouldn't mind if I had driven the length of the bus lane, but I used it only to overtake someone that was about to turn into the garage for those last few meters...

I'll update as I get more info from them when I appeal.

Cheers

Marie.
kevin73
Hi
Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen anything until yesterday. do you think that the signs were correct? i might need to get some more photos today if possible. there were no date or time mention on it. at least it says any time i would not go.

kevin
Marie_78
Ok, I've just been speaking to the local council and was told that I have to submit my challenge whilst requesting the TMO and other information via a freedom of information request which is likely to take more than 14 days, does this sound right??

Thanks again for all the help so far.

Marie.
Gan
QUOTE (Marie_78 @ Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 10:00) *
Ok, I've just been speaking to the local council and was told that I have to submit my challenge whilst requesting the TMO and other information via a freedom of information request which is likely to take more than 14 days, does this sound right??

Thanks again for all the help so far.

Marie.

No, they're trying to con you

The TMO is a public document. You don't need a reason to see it and it's an offence for them to refuse if you visit the offices.

Tell them to email it to you so that you can make an informed decision about the appeal.

If you ever ring councils, make sure you get the name of anyone you speak to and unless you record the call write down everything that's said.
bama
QUOTE
The TMO is a public document.

Exactly.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/schedule/2/made

So outside the FOI as per :-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/21

treating it as an FOI when it is not is common - the effect is that the timescale for the FOI exceeds the timescales for the PCN and so it plays to the LA as it ups the stakes and thus more will pay.
of course the LA won't be doing it deliberately for that reason will they...

complain to the ICO about the LA's mistreatment of the the TMO, their wrong applicability of the FOI when it does not apply and the real prejudice that the LA's error creates. quote both the regs above to the ICO.
Neil B
See my post 24 in the Kevin thread.

The signs were correct a week later. You need to establish when they were put there and the existing ones changed.

Whether legally backed by a temp TMO or not 17/7 seems like yet another example of overzealous, premature implementation -- not that this helps you much.
Marie_78
Thanks Neil, I did see your post. It's useful, thank you.
Planning to get some more info by the end of the week in regards to this.

Marie_78
So I just recieved this email after i applied for the TMO, I appliead via FOI (before I was advised this may not be needed). Anyway, the 4th September is outside the usual 20 day reply for FOI, or does this response actually count as that 20 day reply?

Thanks.


Thank you for your e-mail received on 06 August 2012 requesting information regarding traffic management orders for the area covering Ripple Road.

I have sent your request to Jacquie Harris (Customer Services, Environmental & Enforcement Services) in the Customer Services who will arrange for the information to be provided to you no later than 04 September 2012.

Whilst it is the Council's policy to provide information wherever possible, I need to advise you that there are a number of exemptions under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. These may prevent me from releasing all or some of the information you have asked for. You will, however be informed if this is the case and why.
Hippocrates
Dear, dear, dear. What nonsense. Anyone can turn up at the council today, without notice, to view the TMO.
Marie_78
Thank you, I will be going there tomorrow.
Marie_78
Ok I am going to the council tomorrow to ask to view the TMO for this road and the changes they have made. What do I need to say if they again tell me I need to apply via freedom of information act? Just concerned that I'm going to get conned again and want to be prepared for it. Is there a piece of legislation I need to quote or something?
Gan
Take a copy of the Local Government Act 1972 and tell them they've got ten minutes to produce either the document or a member of their legal department.

I think it's section 225 that applies
EDW
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 16:35) *
Take a copy of the Local Government Act 1972 and tell them they've got ten minutes to produce either the document or a member of their legal department.

I think it's section 225 that applies


They can charge for copying

Subject to any provisions to the contrary in any other enactment or instrument, a person interested in any document deposited as mentioned in section 225 above may, at all reasonable hours, inspect and make copies thereof or extracts therefrom on payment to the person having custody thereof of the sum of 10p for every such inspection, and of the further sum of 10p for every hour during which such inspection continues after the first hour.
Marie_78
Is this what you are talking about? Makes no sense to me whatsoever!! It's all very technical to someone that doesn't speak legal jargon...

225 Deposit of documents with proper officer of authority, etc.

(1)In any case in which a document of any description is deposited with the proper officer of a local authority, or with the chairman of a parish or community council or with the chairman of a parish meeting, pursuant to the standing orders of either House of Parliament or to any enactment or instrument, the proper officer or chairman, as the case may be, shall receive and retain the document in the manner and for the purposes directed by the standing orders or enactment or instrument, and shall make such notes or endorsements on, and give such acknowledgments and receipts in respect of, the document as may be so directed.
(2)All documents required by any enactment or instrument to be deposited with the proper officer of a parish or community shall, in the case of a parish or community not having a separate parish or community council, be deposited in England with the chairman of the parish meeting or in Wales with the proper officer of the [F780principal council].
Gan
That's it

S.225 basically says that they have to keep the document

S.228(5) says that you have a right to inspect it and make copies
bama
and
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/schedule/2/made


there is no need to make an appointment or to give your name
you are "an interested person" - that is sufficient.

and do not ask them to see it
they are public servants, always merely instruct and inform e.g.
"I am here to inspect the Traffic Order for .....!
Marie_78
That's great, thanks guys, I WILL be assertive!!
bama
assertive, not loud or argumentative (they would use that against you to deny you access)
and you can guarantee you will be on CCTV
Marie_78
Of course, I'm just usually such a mouse and end up asking nicely and getting told no.... But with the right information behind me, thanks to everyone here, I will be able to politely challenge them when they say no.
bama
challenge ?
inform them of their mistake smile.gif
and give them the opportunity to correct it.
I am sure they "wish to fulfill their public duty"
Marie_78
Just another thought, I'm planning to take some pictures of signs etc tomorrow or the general area. Unfortunately I have an old camera which won't add the time and date stamp to an image unless you print it (I have no such printer). Will this pose a problem if I need to use them as evidence for any reason?
Gan
You're defending a bus lane contravention, not prosecuting a murder case

Keep the memory card, preferably a new one, so it can produced if necessary. Include the day's newspaper in one of the shots and email the pictures to somebody trustworthy. That's more than enough to show that the pictures were taken when you said.

Look at it this way. They're not going to claim that several weeks ago you took pictures of non-existent signs just on the off-chance that you would get a ticket.

You're also, unlike the council, facing severe penalties if you tell untruths so you have an extra incentive not to tell porkies.
kevin73
Hi Marie

Hows things going on today? did you do to council? and wt abt the photos?
Thanks
kev
kevin73
Hi marie

did u post the letter?
kev
kevin73
Hello Marie
I received letter form council that they have decided to cancle my 2 PCNs
THANKS
KEV blob10.gif blob9.gif blob8.gif blob7.gif blob6.gif blob5.gif blob3.gif
bama
well done.

how dd you get on with seeing the order
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