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Leroy
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: -
Date of the NIP: -
Date you received the NIP: -
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): -
Was the NIP addressed to you? -
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? -
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? -
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 20:48:00 +0000

Hello all,

Sorry, I don't think the wizard has worked properly...

I took the kids to the beach in my wife's car on 24th July. Drove like an old granny, as usual. Had a lovely day.

Just received a notice of prosecution telling me I drove through a red light. I have no recollection of doing so, but they have photographic evidence, they say.

I'm happy to pay a fine, but is there any way I can avoid points?

Cheers...



I've just remembered!

I did move slightly forward at a red light so I could let an emergency vehicle past. Does that change anything?
Gan
Try the additional questions button if the wizard didn't respond

Ask for any photos "to help identify the driver".

You're not the first OP by far to be pinged for moving out of the way of an ambulance.

Unfortunately a red light is an absolute offence. If, however, the picture shows you just a few inches over and the emergency vehicle in the same shot, you might get a favourable response if you enclose with your S172 reply a note asking if it's in the interest of justice to prosecute.

You might get an offer of a red light course.

Leroy
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2012
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - at A3060 Castle Lane East j/w Deansleigh Rd, Bmth - SEbd
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - It is my wife's car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - We had decided to take our kids to the beach. It took us three hours to get there. We had a lovely day. I have no recollection of driving through a red light. I do remember, however, moving forward a little to allow an emergency vehicle past - it might have been then, but I cannot be sure

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Do nothing!

    The police are not requesting the information from you, they are requesting it from the person the NIP is addressed to.
    Wait until you receive a NIP addressed to you personally, then come back here.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 21:25:35 +0000

Also, we have very recently moved house (May) and our documents are all at DVLA for updating the address.

The NIP was sent to our old address. Is there any advantage to simply sending it back saying "no longer at this address"? Or would be be in trouble for taking too long to send our documents off for the address to be changed?
Transit man
QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 22:28) *
The NIP was sent to our old address. Is there any advantage to simply sending it back saying "no longer at this address"? Or would be be in trouble for taking too long to send our documents off for the address to be changed?

DO NOT DO IT rolleyes.gif

You have the paperwork, I assume by having your mail forwarded, to mess about invites you to an outing that could lead to a much more serious problem.

I suggest that you ask them for photos to "help identify the driver", do not use words like evidence or proof, they do not have to send them but often do. As already mentioned, the photo MAY have some details of the emergency vehicle & MAY be of assistance to you, but whatever you do, reply naming yourself within the 28 days, to not do so is bad news financially.
Leroy
So...

Ask for a photo immediately, but reply with the name of the driver within 28 days, is that correct?

I assume there is no point progressing with Mr Wonderful's system of not signing the NIP etc...?

I'm also starting to realise I'll just have the take the fine (and more depressingly, the points) on the chin... sad.gif
sgtdixie
whilst moving through a red light to let an emergency vehicle through is still an offence, the good news is that if you write to them and explain they will almost certainly have that vehicle on a photo corroborating your account. The photo of your vehicle will also show your speed and the fact you were moving at an angle to let someone past. In many cases SCP's will then discontinue as not in the public interest or if you go to court there would be special reasons not to endorse.
ItchyCrakus
If its your wifes car and she got the NIP addressed to her then she should send it back naming you as the driver. You will get your own NIP.

Someone messed this up recently and nearly ended up in a pile of dung.

Then follow SD's advice once you have your own NIP. The SCP's are not complete ar$es.
Gan
Don't forget that your wife must deal with this, asking for photos first and naming you as driver afterward, NOT YOU

When you get your own form later, you can raise the subject of the emergency vehicle

The form tells her not to pass it to the driver. Give it back to her because the system's default response to any confusion is an S172 prosecution
andy_foster
QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 22:17) *
You're not the first OP by far to be pinged for moving out of the way of an ambulance.

Unfortunately a red light is an absolute offence.



QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 08:55) *
whilst moving through a red light to let an emergency vehicle through is still an offence,


Red light offences, as with many driving offences, are strict liability offences. That means that there is no requirement for an intention to commit the offence. hat does not however make them absolute offences - there are certain defences available.

There is a general defence of duress of circumstances - if you reasonably believed that there was a danger of death or serious injury to a person if you did not do what would otherwise constitute an offence, and that it was necessary to do what you did, you do not commit the offence. The onus would be on you to prove the defence if it went to court.

If court can be avoided by persuading either the scammers or the CPS that it is not in the public interest to prosecute you, that would be better than having to try to defend yourself.

Obviously these comments are based on the assumption that the incident referred to in the NIP is the one involving the emergency vehicle. As has been said, obtaining photos 'to help you to identify the driver' would hopefully give some indication as to whether this is the case.
jimster
QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 21:59) *
Just received a notice of prosecution telling me I drove through a red light. I have no recollection of doing so

I'm happy to pay a fine, but is there any way I can avoid points?


QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 21:59) *
I've just remembered!

I did move slightly forward at a red light so I could let an emergency vehicle past. Does that change anything?


QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 22:28) *
The NIP was sent to our old address. Is there any advantage to simply sending it back saying "no longer at this address"? Or would be be in trouble for taking too long to send our documents off for the address to be changed?


QUOTE (Leroy @ Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 08:26) *
I assume there is no point progressing with Mr Wonderful's system of not signing the NIP etc...?



The OP appears to be fishing around for a get out .... which is not necessarily a bad thing

I would suggest the he does not use the "ambulance" card unless it is true

Leroy
QUOTE (jimster @ Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 12:51) *
The OP appears to be fishing around for a get out .... which is not necessarily a bad thing

I would suggest the he does not use the "ambulance" card unless it is true


Well, I have no memory of jumping any lights, but I do remember being at the front of a queue at some lights and made a decision to move forward to aid the passing of an ambulance. That's the only time I can think I may have made a mistake.

Of course I'm looking for a get out! £60 is a lot of money to me, as is the increase in my insurance premiums - That'll teach me to treat the kids to a rare day out!
Leroy
Well, my wife sent off a letter asking for a photograph "to help identify the driver", and still no response from them.

We're getting closer to the 28 day deadline of returning the NIP. How long should I wait for a reply, with or without the photograph?

Also, what if they refuse to send a photograph, or we don't get a reply at all? How would we genuinely know who the driver was (my wife and I shared the driving during the journey).
Logician
Do not risk exceeding the 28 days or your wife may be facing the more serious s172 charge.

If you are not sure who was driving you have two choices:

(1) Work out who was driving, by reconstructing the journey, who started off, where you changed drivers etc. or failing that take your best guess.

(2) Reply offering the names of both possible drivers and explain why you are unable to determine which of you was driving at the time in question. This will almost certainly result in a summons for failure to provide driver details and you will have to persuade a court that you could not, with reasonable diligence, have identified the driver. This is not impossible, but is increasingly difficult as too many people have tried to get off speeding tickets in the past by using this defence, and magistrates have become highly suspicious of claims that two grown adults cannot remember a journey they made a few days previously. If you cannot show that you were genuinely unable to identify the driver, the penalty is 6 points, a fine of several hundred pounds, and an MS90 code on your driving licence which will make getting insurance difficult and expensive for the next 5 years - much more so than a minor speeding offence. Insurance companies see the code, and wonder what you did that was so terrible that 6 points and £500 was a better option than owning up to it.

Given the disparity in the penalties, in these circumstances taking your best guess is usually the most pragmatic option

If this is just other internet advice on how to get off speeding tickets, forget it. It might have worked in the past but does not now because too many people have tried it on, making life difficult for the very few people who genuinely cannot work out who was driving.
jimster
Your wife names the driver within 28 days or she ..... repeat she ..... will potentially face a far more serious charge

Failing to get the photos she should name you, because you are aware of committing a red light offence on that day.

This would get you your own form which gives you a further 28 days to work out if the red light named on the NIP is the same one you went through.



Leroy
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 12:57) *
If this is just other internet advice on how to get off speeding tickets, forget it. It might have worked in the past but does not now because too many people have tried it on, making life difficult for the very few people who genuinely cannot work out who was driving.


I appreciate your honesty, and quite frankly, this is what I have been expecting all along...

They've got us by the ***** and there is nothing we, or Pepipoo can do about it...
3phase278
QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 19:46) *
They've got us by the ***** and there is nothing we, or Pepipoo can do about it...


yes there is - your wife needs to name the driver within the 28 days (that's you by your account)

you then get your own s.172 likely followed by COFP

then you get a chance to decline COFP and go to court to explain about the ambulance - as per norah's post above they can tell and you stand a reasonable chance of success of guilty but special reasons not to endorse but not guaranteed - see this article from some years ago

court is obviously more time involved, and if you are found guilty then higher court costs but points should be same as cofp - if found guilty and there was an ambulance, sell your story to recover costs wink.gif

the hard lesson to learn is don't move over red for any blues and twos - goes against instinct for most but emergency vehicles should be trained to cope with that situation
ItchyCrakus
QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 19:46) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 12:57) *
If this is just other internet advice on how to get off speeding tickets, forget it. It might have worked in the past but does not now because too many people have tried it on, making life difficult for the very few people who genuinely cannot work out who was driving.


I appreciate your honesty, and quite frankly, this is what I have been expecting all along...

They've got us by the ***** and there is nothing we, or Pepipoo can do about it...


I think what Pepipoo has done is given you the best advice possible to be honest.


Your wife received the NIP sometime last week and she (hopefully) has requested photos to help ID the driver.
She has four weeks (approx 30 days from the date of the NIP) to to get the s172 back to them. If you have not seen the Photos by "receipt +21days, she sends it off (getting POP from the PO.) You get your NIp and the 28 day clock runs again.

The scammers are particularly busy at the moment. People travelling on roads they are not used to etc etc

You never know. The operator picking up the photos might spot the Ambulance and be kind enough to send those frames to you. wink.gif

There is still time.
norahl
QUOTE (3phase278 @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 23:00) *
QUOTE (Leroy @ Fri, 10 Aug 2012 - 19:46) *
They've got us by the ***** and there is nothing we, or Pepipoo can do about it...


yes there is - your wife needs to name the driver within the 28 days (that's you by your account)

you then get your own s.172 likely followed by COFP

then you get a chance to decline COFP and go to court to explain about the ambulance - as per norah's post above they can tell and you stand a reasonable chance of success of guilty but special reasons not to endorse but not guaranteed - see this article from some years ago

court is obviously more time involved, and if you are found guilty then higher court costs but points should be same as cofp - if found guilty and there was an ambulance, sell your story to recover costs wink.gif

the hard lesson to learn is don't move over red for any blues and twos - goes against instinct for most but emergency vehicles should be trained to cope with that situation


As explained above, the circumstances can be replotted, hence why the chap in the newspaper would not be in a situation not to endorse; I am not aware of the final outcome but the circumstances in the image certainly don't bear out the claim.
Leroy
We now have two photos. Unfortunately there is no ambulance in the images. That incident obviously happened at another set of lights, and either didn't register, or wasn't considered serious enough.

So, in these images I have clearly not noticed a red light. Bang to rights, Guvnor...

Now, there is a chance I can do a driving course rather than take the points, but it depends on the timings involved.

Are the two pictures taken a second apart? The first image about half my car is over the stop line, the second it is 4-5 car lengths forward (it is very hard to tell).

The photo does say "V=26", could this be my velocity is 26mph?

Needlesstosay, my wife is returning the NIP soon...
Logician
The crucial timing for getting a course or not may be the time into red, is that shown?
Leroy
I can't decipher anything on either images that could be a timing.

I did find a website which described the timings "allowed" before a course is offered, but I'm struggling to find it again...

I've found it - it says:

1 to 1.9 seconds results in a DAS...

Is there any way I can work out the timings from the photographs?
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (Leroy @ Sat, 11 Aug 2012 - 11:47) *
We now have two photos. Unfortunately there is no ambulance in the The photo does say "V=26", could this be my velocity is 26mph?

Yes, but your speed is irrelevent for this type of offenc.

Post the photographs up.
jimster
"Moved slightly forward" at 26 mph.?

Leroy
QUOTE (jimster @ Sat, 11 Aug 2012 - 12:42) *
"Moved slightly forward" at 26 mph.?

I did say it wasn't the "Ambulance" incident after all...
sgtdixie
May I suggest you stop fishing. When you name yourself you will either be offered a course or a COFP. It is out of your hands and unless you dispute the evidence you will have to take what is offered.

QUOTE
the hard lesson to learn is don't move over red for any blues and twos - goes against instinct for most but emergency vehicles should be trained to cope with that situation


How can a response driver cope with stationary traffic and no way round? If I saw an ambulance in this situation behind me I would always move over, after all there may be someone in the back in a critical condition where every second counts. All ambulances have registration numbers, most have fleet or similar serial numbers visible on the back. Note the number. When you get the NIP explain the incident & give them the VRM/number. The photo WILL show a car at circa 5 mph moving at an angle to clear the way and normally the emergency vehicle will be pinged as well.
3phase278
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sat, 11 Aug 2012 - 15:43) *
How can a response driver cope with stationary traffic and no way round? If I saw an ambulance in this situation behind me I would always move over, after all there may be someone in the back in a critical condition where every second counts. All ambulances have registration numbers, most have fleet or similar serial numbers visible on the back. Note the number. When you get the NIP explain the incident & give them the VRM/number. The photo WILL show a car at circa 5 mph moving at an angle to clear the way and normally the emergency vehicle will be pinged as well.


hi sgt - my comment was in context of being stationary at front of queue at traffic lights. If the lights are on red and traffic is backed up then the emergency driver needs to take a route into oncoming lane to pass. I do a lot of miles and of obviously have moved over/pulled in to make way many many times in different scenarios, but I'm aware that crossing a red is no guarantee not to get points.
Leroy
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sat, 11 Aug 2012 - 15:43) *
May I suggest you stop fishing. When you name yourself you will either be offered a course or a COFP. It is out of your hands and unless you dispute the evidence you will have to take what is offered.

I thought this site was set up to help people "fish"!

Sorry...
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