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sizle
My missus has recently got a PCN for being parked in a resident (with my car angry.gif). The original PCN has gone walkies so I cant post it up.

A few things I have noted from this are:

When I logged into the website to view the details and it specifies that my vehicle is an saloon when it's an estate.

I went back to the area and saw that she entered an area with cpz signs on both sides of the road but the sign on the right hand side as obstructed by trees.

Does anyone think I may have a case as the signs were not displayed clearly, or are these cpz signs for SYL?









Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Hippocrates
A shame about the PCN as I believe there is an issue with the wording on the ones I have seen re 3(2)(b)(ii) regulation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/d...cketReverse.jpg

Para 4 under HOW TO CHALLENGE makes mincemeat out of the regulation and is nonsense.

I would ask for a copy immediately to be sure of this argument.
sizle
Could I say when I get a NTO that I did not receive the PCN and ask for it to sent to me?
sizle
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 22:02) *
A shame about the PCN as I believe there is an issue with the wording on the ones I have seen re 3(2)(b)(ii) regulation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/d...cketReverse.jpg

Para 4 under HOW TO CHALLENGE makes mincemeat out of the regulation and is nonsense.

I would ask for a copy immediately to be sure of this argument.


I just found another recent Islington PCN and the back does confirm your second link:

'If representations are made before the NTO is served representations will be considered, notwithstanding those representations, representations must be made in a the form and manner specified in the NTO.'

Hippocrates
QUOTE (sizle @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 22:43) *
Could I say when I get a NTO that I did not receive the PCN and ask for it to sent to me?


Absolutely not, unless you want to pay a £5,000 fine. You have received it. E-mail the council for a copy PCN explaining the original has been lost and then make an informal challenge on the issue raised. Assuming it is the same wording. Plus anything else people notice.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (sizle @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 22:57) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 22:02) *
A shame about the PCN as I believe there is an issue with the wording on the ones I have seen re 3(2)(b)(ii) regulation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/d...cketReverse.jpg

Para 4 under HOW TO CHALLENGE makes mincemeat out of the regulation and is nonsense.

I would ask for a copy immediately to be sure of this argument.


I just found another recent Islington PCN and the back does confirm your second link:

'If representations are made before the NTO is served representations will be considered, notwithstanding those representations, representations must be made in a the form and manner specified in the NTO.'


Not that bad!
hcandersen
While I'm not implying that these peripheral matters might not yet yield a golden nugget, can we get back to the start pl?

Contravention.

According to the OP, this occurred in a parking place. So forget CPZs. As the OP intimated, they're for yellow lines and are irrelevant.

So, what street? Does Google Maps give an accurate view of the parking place and signs?

Your missus couldn't have been parked "in a resident", so was this a resident's only permit bay, or a shared-use bay? What?

Let's leave the technicalities until we've exhausted the first-order issues pl.

HCA
Hippocrates
Yes, but how can we without the PCN and details?
hcandersen
Location; date; time; exact contravention; what was being displayed in the parking place; what was being displayed in the vehicle should all be facts which the OP's missus knows, I hope!

HCA
sizle
After much hunting she managed to find it, but its in abit of a state but here goes:





She was dropping off something for a friend and it was raining quite heavily at the time and did not think these guys would pounce on the car.

Here's the pics from their website:








Nothing was displayed in the car at the time.
Incandescent
Well, on the face of it, you're bang-to-rights on this one, but you have given a hint of an appeal in that you say your wife was dropping off something for a friend, so could possibly claim loading exemption. However, I don't know if this is an exemption in a restricted parking place, (it is on single or double yellow lines). Others more knowledgeable will no doubt answer this one.

However, the PCN may have some defects to make an appeal on its legality to the adjudicators worth while. Much depends on whether you are prepared to tough it out to the end, which will be for the full PCN amount, not the 50% reduction. However, an informal appeal never did anyone any harm, (the PCN says they will give you another 14 days if they reject it), so prepare an appeal if you think you should not be paying. You need to find out what your wife was dropping off if you claim loading exemption, if such is allowed, as normally, unless you are a delivery man, the articles would need to be of a bulky, weighty or difficult nature to claim loading exemption. Just returning a single book would probably fail, rain or no rain, but a box of heavy books might.
hcandersen
The discount period expired on 27 July and so unless it's re-offered you're in for the full penalty.

You may still challenge the PCN (earliest date for issuing a NTO is 11 Aug, so you've time).

I suggest your missus submits a challenge on the basis of delivering a package(s) to her friend and that this was the nearest she could get to the place of delivery and that she was there for no longer than necessary in order to deliver and return to the vehicle - if these are true matters.

HCA
sizle
Thanks for your input so far, unfortunately I have missed the 14 days, and am still waiting on the NtO to arrive.

The missus was dropping off boxes of books she was trying to get rid of (which why she was using my estate car) and was no way longer than 10 minutes. Could she claim loading exemption?

In the meantime I've looked at the crusty PCN and it states they were there for 08.58 to 09.01 and then up to 09.03 when the pictures were taken, total of five minutes. Should I request the CEO notes to confirm this? This was also the nearest she could park to her fiends and that she was there for no longer than necessary to drop off and return to the vehicle.

Should I also request TRO for the loading/unloading information as I have tried searching for it with no luck.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (sizle @ Wed, 15 Aug 2012 - 22:40) *
Thanks for your input so far, unfortunately I have missed the 14 days, and am still waiting on the NtO to arrive.

The missus was dropping off boxes of books she was trying to get rid of (which why she was using my estate car) and was no way longer than 10 minutes. Could she claim loading exemption?

In the meantime I've looked at the crusty PCN and it states they were there for 08.58 to 09.01 and then up to 09.03 when the pictures were taken, total of five minutes. Should I request the CEO notes to confirm this? This was also the nearest she could park to her fiends and that she was there for no longer than necessary to drop off and return to the vehicle.

Should I also request TRO for the loading/unloading information as I have tried searching for it with no luck.






Yes, unloading!

And if you haven't got an NTO yet why not just send an informal challenge now, by email, tonight? Make sure you include your name and postal address as well as the PCN number. HCA suggested that your wife submits a challenge on the basis of delivering packages/boxes of books to her friend and that this was the nearest she could get to the place of delivery and that she was there for no longer than necessary in order to deliver and return to the vehicle.

And yes, do a final paragrapg saying that if they reject, you require a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of or link to the Traffic Order that they contend has been contravened. However as you are claiming a loading exemption and the CEO only observed the car for 3 minutes, you expect the PCN to be cancelled at this early stage to avoid wasting an adjudicator's time.
sizle
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 15 Aug 2012 - 23:21) *
Yes, unloading!

And if you haven't got an NTO yet why not just send an informal challenge now, by email, tonight? Make sure you include your name and postal address as well as the PCN number. HCA suggested that your wife submits a challenge on the basis of delivering packages/boxes of books to her friend and that this was the nearest she could get to the place of delivery and that she was there for no longer than necessary in order to deliver and return to the vehicle.

And yes, do a final paragrapg saying that if they reject, you require a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of or link to the Traffic Order that they contend has been contravened. However as you are claiming a loading exemption and the CEO only observed the car for 3 minutes, you expect the PCN to be cancelled at this early stage to avoid wasting an adjudicator's time.


Thanks for your input, I was beginning to put together something along the lines of this:

I am writing to informally challenge a Penalty Charge Notice that was wrongly issued on the 14/07/2012 between 08:58 to 09:01. The contravention did not occur as the vehicle was being used for the purpose of delivering heavy boxes of books to a friend on Amwell Street and this was the nearest place to park to get to the place of delivery and was there for no longer than necessary in order to deliver and return to the vehicle

I do hope that you are understanding on this matter and that you accept this informal challenge and cancel the PCN to avoid having to go through the time consuming PATAS process. If however you decide to reject this informal challenge, I would require you to supply a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of or link to the Traffic Order for the alleged contravention.



How does it look?
hcandersen
You're past the 28-day period and can expect a NTO at any time. Chances are you won't even get a reply to this letter because it's being submitted so late in the process.

Just send it, there's no such thing as a perfect submission and every day you delay increases the chances that whatever you send could be overtaken by NTO events.

HCA
sizle
I sent off the an informal rep on the 16/8/12 and did not get a response surprise surprise. They sent me an NTO a few days ago dated 20/8/12. Am I able to use the fact that they have not responded to my email?

Here's the NTO







Hippocrates
You were late so no go there. However, nicely-flawed NtO.
sizle
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 27 Aug 2012 - 22:28) *
You were late so no go there. However, nicely-flawed NtO.


In what way is the NtO flawed?

They are still offering me an opportunity to challenge, even though I sent one to them after 28 days. Shall I send them a rep as offered on page 2?
Hippocrates
TICK THE RELEVANT BOX:- You are allowed to use as many grounds as you like. This instruction fetters to one.

5(2)(b)(i):- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/5/made

Also, I cannot find 3(4)(d)(ii):- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made
sizle
laugh.gif I see it.


Should I still try and send a rep again with this additional point or wait until the PATAS stage?
Hippocrates
See my other addition. No. You must make reps. to the council. You have time so wait for others' views. Correction: missus' ticket? Is her responsibility now. But wait.
sizle
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 28 Aug 2012 - 23:29) *


Thanks Hipp
sizle
I am resending my original representation plus the point about the box(es), any thoughts before I send it off would be much appreciated:


Dear

I am writing to informally challenge a Penalty Charge Notice that was wrongly issued on the 14/07/2012 between 08:58 to 09:01. The contravention did not occur as the vehicle was being used for the purpose of delivering heavy boxes of books to a friend on Amwell Street and this was the nearest place to park to get to the place of delivery and was there for no longer than necessary in order to deliver and return to the vehicle.

I have also noted from the second page of the Notice to Owner it states 'TICK THE RELEVANT BOX', and according to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 5(2)(b)(i), I am allowed 'one or more of the grounds specified in regulation 4(4) applies. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/5/made
I therefore believe this is a procedure impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority


I do hope that you are understanding on this matter and that you accept this informal challenge and cancel the PCN to avoid having to go through the time consuming PATAS process. If however you decide to reject this informal challenge, I would require you to supply a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of or link to the Traffic Order for the alleged contravention.

Regards
SchoolRunMum
Looks fine to me, let us know what response you get to that one.
sizle
I received an email response yesterday stating:

Dear

Penalty Charge Notice No. IS27073751 Date of Issue 14/07/2012 at 09:01

Location of Contravention Amwell Street, EC1


Thank you for your email regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which was recently received at this office.
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a resident permit holders parking place without a valid permit or voucher. As residents pay a fee for the exclusivity of such bays, we must insist that vehicles displaying a valid permit or voucher during restricted times.

You state that you had parked in order to deliver heavy boxes to a nearby property. We do apply an exemption for loading / unloading, however, we must be satisfied that the vehicle is parked out of necessity as opposed to convenience. On this occasion, the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed the vehicle for 3 minutes before they issued the PCN. They then remained with the vehicle for a further 2 minutes and they have noted that during the total time of 5 minutes, there was no activity evident, nor was the driver seen at any point. I am therefore satisfied they were correct to issue the PCN.

We may reconsider the PCN, if you can provide documentary evidence to support your claim. Please note that he receipt of these documents does not necessarily mean the charge will be cancelled but will allow us to look into the matter in detail.

In the meantime, I am going to place this case on hold until 9 October 2012 to allow you enough time to supply the supporting documentation. Should you decide to pay then a payment of £65.00 will be accepted in settlement if we receive it before that date.

If we don't hear from you by then, I will formally reject your representations and the full charge of £130.00 will be due.

You can make credit and debit card payment on - 020 7527 2000 - at any time. You can also pay on line at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the above address. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number).

Yours sincerely








Incandescent
As you were delivering boxes of books to a friend, you obviously have no delivery notes or any similar documentation, so documentary proof will have to come from (1) a letter from your friend confirming the circumstances and (2) some information on the weight of the boxes, and maybe photos of them, (or the books). They cannot deny you a loading exemption, (unless the TRO specifically bans it), but you need to prove it. Loading consists of all the necessary activities, so you will have to explain the length of time away from your car - location of flat, distance from car, etc. If they still refuse then you have the choice of paying the 50% penalty, or taking it to the adjudicator who will study the evidence of both sides.
sizle
They have totally disregarded my point about their inpropriety in the NTO: 'TICK THE RELEVANT BOX'

or the request for the copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of or link to the Traffic Order.

Incadescent, I agree, if i was delivering heavy boxes of boxs to a friend there would be no invoice of any kind, however a letter from the person who I was delivering it to may support my claim/circumstances. they could confirm they were taken up 4 flights of stairs which needed two people at a time, but unlikely to information about the weight of the boxes or photo's.




bama
needed two people to carry therefore large/heavy, should be no need for weights and measures numbers
hcandersen
Don't overcomplicate matters.

The council have served a PCN; they are now obliged to either pursue it or to cancel it; the money is due to the council and may not be written-off without proper justification, not least because their accounts should be subject to audit; they therefore need plausible evidence; no one (in their right mind) is going to gainsay your detailed info once you've submitted it, so compile it and submit it.

Premises were at ***; veh parked at &&& which was nearest available location. X boxes, each weighing between Y and Z kg with dimensions approx A*B*C were taken from the car to the premises which were situated on the Nth floor of the property; you would estimate that a single journey took M minutes ( where M > > 5) etc.

And forget about improprieties, they don't convey the right impression which is that you don't need technicalities because you were engaged in an exempt activity, weren't you?

HCA
sizle
I've managed to get a letter from my friend at the property stating that on the day we were unloading from my vehicle 4 heavy boxes that required both of us to move into the top floor of the property. The property has 4 flights of stairs totally 36 steps over ground, 1st and 2nd floor. T

The address where the boxes were delivered to was number #; and the vehicle was parked on the corner of Amwell St/Gt Percy St which was nearest available location to park the vehicle to transport the goods to the house which was about 10 metres away. The 4 boxes, each weighing between 25 and 35 kg with dimensions approx 1 metre by 0.5 metres were taken from the car to the premises which were situated on the 2nd floor of the property; I would estimate that a single journey took more than five minutes plus we had to repeat this journey.
SchoolRunMum
Sounds like good evidence.
sizle
Just got a letter through the post accepting my representation, what a relief, I'm glad this is another one out of the way. Thank you all for your input, these valuable lessons have definitely opened my eyes wider.
hcandersen
smile.gif


HCA
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