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geekman
I suspect I may have to pay this one, as it was categorically my fault (unfamiliar with the area) and as I live in London, I'm unable to go back to the location and check for any signing errors etc. It's only £30 so not the end of the world, but I thought I'd post up the ticket in case there's anything that voids it.
Photo of the PCN is here http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5964/20120801104036.jpg

Thanks!
Neil B
member 'mancunian' has a thread about his PCN at the location.

He takes issue with the signage being at the last minute, in a 'road to nowhere'.
geekman
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:01) *
member 'mancunian' has a thread about his PCN at the location.

He takes issue with the signage being at the last minute, in a 'road to nowhere'.

Thanks, I would agree the signing is very poor. However as I am unable to go back to the location, unless there's any mistakes on the ticket I guess I'll have to pay it.
Hippocrates
If you look at the linked thread, there appear to be signage issues:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...rt=#entry715587

If the route is for buses, cycles and taxis, the words(legend 1048) Bus Lane should not be used in conjunction with sign 953, the blue roundel:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_152

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_099

Rather this, 1048.4:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_154

PATAS Case:- 210055021A. http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

Member incandescent seems to know the signage and the area. Why not PM him for confirmation? Also, in the same thread Bogsy has made a point about the possible missing Only plate (953.2). So, it would be worth checking that, too. The other route is to ask for evidence of all signage from M/cester.

If all those check out, I would definitely appeal this one. But would also require the Traffic Regulation Order and ask if there has been any special DfT authorisation:- judith1.tracey@dft.gsi.gov.uk
geekman
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 10:47) *
If you look at the linked thread, there appear to be signage issues:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...rt=#entry715587

If the route is for buses, cycles and taxis, the words(legend 1048) Bus Lane should not be used in conjunction with sign 953, the blue roundel:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_152

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_099

Rather this, 1048.4:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_154

PATAS Case:- 210055021A. http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

Member incandescent seems to know the signage and the area. Why not PM him for confirmation? Also, in the same thread Bogsy has made a point about the possible missing Only plate (953.2). So, it would be worth checking that, too. The other route is to ask for evidence of all signage from M/cester.

If all those check out, I would definitely appeal this one. But would also require the Traffic Regulation Order and ask if there has been any special DfT authorisation:- judith1.tracey@dft.gsi.gov.uk

Thanks for the reply. Having looked through all those links, it would appear that the OP in the first thread still lost his case. Although I have no doubt the case is valid (both yours and Bogsy's points on signage seem to check out), if my appeal was denied I wouldn't be able to attend court in Manchester. I'll have a closer look at everything and if I decide to go ahead I'll give incandescent a PM, but right now I'm thinking it may be easier to pay this one, as it is only £30.
Hippocrates
What court in Manchester? You could elect for a phone hearing at the TPT's expense. What arguments did the other OP use? The case I cited resulted in a win.
geekman
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 11:31) *
What court in Manchester? You could elect for a phone hearing at the TPT's expense. What arguments did the other OP use? The case I cited resulted in a win.

Oh, I wasn't aware that it was possible to do this. Mancunian cited legislation stating that "the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road" and stated that the signage didn't conform, but failed to include further signage points made by Incandescent and Bogsy after he sent the appeal. His appeal was denied and it would appear that he chose to pay it at the reduced rate rather than take it any further.
The case you linked in that particular thread was however successful, so I'll take a look at both cases and decide what to do. Thanks for your help with this!
Hippocrates
Surely there is nothing to lose by making a representation at this stage? Once decided, you need all the items as advised, of course.
geekman
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 12:20) *
Surely there is nothing to lose by making a representation at this stage? Once decided, you need all the items as advised, of course.

I was under the impression that should my representation be denied, I would have to pay the standard charge of £60, rather than the reduced rate of £30. Or is this only applicable if I take the case to the independent adjudicator?
Neil B
QUOTE (geekman @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 12:59) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 12:20) *
Surely there is nothing to lose by making a representation at this stage? Once decided, you need all the items as advised, of course.

I was under the impression that should my representation be denied, I would have to pay the standard charge of £60, rather than the reduced rate of £30. Or is this only applicable if I take the case to the independent adjudicator?

Most Councils will re-offer the discount, to tempt you into paying, in response to reps made inside the 14 days. Postal PCNs tend not to make this clear/state it. there is no guarantee. You would have to find other cases as a comparison, to see what M/C did. i.e. the Mancunian thread - where they did re-offer the discount.

Proceeding, if needed, to adjudication would be for the full amount of £60.

Telephone hearings are one option but TPT hearings can be arranged in London (Grays Inn Rd, I believe). I don't know of any hindrance to that just because the Council would be a distance away from the venue.

---

Noting Bogsy's point the crux seems to be whether the 'only' plates are now present. A member has said the signage is now "compliant" but gave no explanation of what has changed.

EDIT- sorry - and the 1048.1 issue.
Incandescent
I have been asked if I have visited this street recently, but unfortunately, whilst being familiar with the location, I cannot remember what signage is in place. So it may now be compliant or may not be, I don't know. I have to say that the original Google pics show the road markings almost draw you into this trap.

Better not to drive at all in Central Manchester, the council are like a pack of wolves when it comes to motorists.
Hippocrates
OK. In that case, I would request/require all evidence they have of the alleged contravention and evidence of all signage in place at the date of the alleged contravention, the Traffic Regulation Order in pdf with all schedules and amendments and any diagrams, plans and lists of all signs in place at the said location.
diskmandave
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 14:22) *
A member has said the signage is now "compliant" but gave no explanation of what has changed.


LOL!!! Would that be ME ??!!!

What I should have said, was that the signage had been updated...

ANYWAY... Been to town with camera today and taken some pictures..

Will upload to Photobucket with links later..
Hippocrates
geekman, see this thread:- http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=72279&hl=

Thanks to diskmandave

In particular:-

If you care to look at this decision re the "Beatson Tests" the signage would be found to be wanting i.e. according to the Chief Adjudicator in this case:-

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/...sion%20C.S..pdf
geekman
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 23:03) *
geekman, see this thread:- http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=72279&hl=

Thanks to diskmandave

In particular:-

If you care to look at this decision re the "Beatson Tests" the signage would be found to be wanting i.e. according to the Chief Adjudicator in this case:-

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/...sion%20C.S..pdf

Thanks once again for those links. Unless you advise against this, I plan on calling manchester council tomorrow to confirm that I'll still be eligible for the £30 fine if I appeal. If they say that I will be, I'll begin constructing an appeal, if not then I'll pay the fine and just chalk it up to experience.
Hippocrates
I never advise calling a council unless you have a recorder and a witness present and get the name of the person you are dealing with. I would write.

Tell you what, I advise going the full distance and, if you lose, I will pay the whole penalty charge - and I will put it in writing via PM.
geekman
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 5 Aug 2012 - 13:38) *
I never advise calling a council unless you have a recorder and a witness present and get the name of the person you are dealing with. I would write.

Tell you what, I advise going the full distance and, if you lose, I will pay the whole penalty charge - and I will put it in writing via PM.

I do have a recorder and a witness, but if you suggest that it's better to write, I'll happily do that.
That's an extremely kind offer! My only concern would be my skill (or lack thereof) in handling the appeal. I would hate to lose the appeal and by consequence lose your money due to any mistake on my part: I am considerably less experienced than you in handling such cases and would probably require a lot of help from you to construct a case of a good standard
geekman
Many thanks for your PM Hippocrates, would you mind clearing your PM box so I can reply?
EDW
your photos show your address, suggest you dont do this.


The blue sign can be used with 'BUS LANE' but only on certain types of road.

It seems that the 'BUS LANE' is only used when there is a solid white thick line the length of the lane.

I suggest you email the council and ask which one the scheme is supposed to be and check the Order.


It seems that the no entry sign is missing in the photo on the other thread.

old google photo interesting the no entry sign on the left facing is a bollard type.

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