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Windy
I while ago I received a council parking charge as I had parked with my back wheels over onto double yellow lines. I wasn't causing an obstruction or anything and I appealed. The council have emailled back and said they are not upholding my appeal as I do not have suffucient grounds.
As it was the first informal appeal, I have a further 14 days to pay the reduced fine of £35, that time runs out on Monday so I was just about to pay the fine when I suddenly realised that there are no signs on that stretch of road, think there may be some on the other side of the road, but none on the side I was parked on.
As I have had my one strike, so to speak, if I appeal again formally, I will have to pay the full £70 if it fails, which to be honest, I can't afford

The council said I was parked in a 'No Waiting At Any Time Restriction' - it was double yellow lines, I'm not disputing that.
They have quoted the Highway code:-

The notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer state that your vehicle was parked with at least two wheels in the ‘No Waiting’ restriction, signified by the double yellow lines. Vehicles are not permitted to park on double yellow lines Within the Highway Code it state that: “You must not wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby times plates” and “Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs”.

I guess that the ticket is legitimate and I should just pay up? Am I right?

TIA
Bluedart

Don't get carried away with no signage. It may be a CPZ and they would only need signage if the restrictions were any different than that displayed on the zonal sign.
You will need to check all signs.
localdriver
Double yellow lines and no signs means 'At Any Time' and so no signs are required.
Windy
Thanks guys, there are not any signs on the other side of the road either where there are double yellows, so I guess its pay up and shut up!! ha ha

Lesson learned. It just amazes me that other people get away with parking completely on the yellow lines, where I had only part of my car over and they not only gave me a ticket but put a notice on to tow away!! Doesn't seem fair but I'll make sure I don't do it again.
Bogsy
Should it ever happen again then include the text below in any appeal. It challenges the lawfulness of council's not placing traffic signs with double yellow lines.

I’m informed that the double yellow line is to diagram 1018.1 TSRGD 2002 and indicates a prohibition of waiting at any time. It is clear from diagram 1018.1 and direction 22(1) TSRGD 2002 that “at any time” is a reference to the applicable hours only since the applicable days, weeks and months can be varied. The prohibition can be varied from a minimum of 4 consecutive months up to a maximum of 12 consecutive months. Considering this fact, a motorist needs to be adequately informed of those consecutive days, weeks and months when the prohibition is applicable.

Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 requires a council to place traffic signs that adequately convey the effect of a traffic order. However, upon investigation I have learned that the council relies upon the deliberate absence of any adjacent traffic sign as a means to convey that the no waiting at any time prohibition applies on every day of the year. The council’s deliberate non-placing of a traffic sign to convey the effect of the traffic order is not only completely contrary to Regulation 18 but is also a display of disregard for the law. When I parked there was no traffic sign placed that adequately conveyed that the 24 hour waiting prohibition was applicable that particular day. Therefore, I consider the council to have failed in its statutory duty to comply with regulation 18 and I believe the penalty charge to be unfairly and unreasonably imposed.

I also bring to the council's attention that direction 22(1) TSRGD 2002 only permits a double yellow line to be placed where a traffic order does restrict waiting at any time on a side of road from a minimum of 4 consecutive months up to a maximum of 12 consecutive months and yet I have been unable to find any paragraph in the council's traffic orders that indicates whether the restriction applies for only 4 consecutive months or for a longer period. Direction 22(1) is quite clear that a double yellow line can only be placed where this statutory requirement is met. If this appeal is rejected then I require the council to identify the title of the regulating traffic order and the relevant paragraph within it that confirms the applicable period for the no waiting at any time restriction. When doing so please remember that “at any time” is only a reference to the applicable hours and not the applicable consecutive days, weeks and months.
Hippocrates
Bogsy, your finely-tuned "little grey cells" scare me at times! laugh.gif
hcandersen
You should post up your PCN and their reply as it's not just the DYLs that represent a potential ground of appeal. You'll need to be quick if your discount period lapses on Monday.

Also, the location would be useful.

HCA
Windy
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 21 Jul 2012 - 13:48) *
You should post up your PCN and their reply as it's not just the DYLs that represent a potential ground of appeal. You'll need to be quick if your discount period lapses on Monday.

Also, the location would be useful.

HCA


I would do if I could find it!!
I got the ticket in May but it has taken them this long to reject my appeal.
I think I am probably fighting alost cause now.
I don't have the PCN, but can post the reply to my appeal, but its probably no good without the PCN to go with it.

Thank you for your challenge received in our office on the 8th May 2012.

The above Penalty Charge Notice was issued to your vehicle as you were parked on double yellow lines on Sneinton Boulevard. This means that the vehicle was parked in contravention of a ‘No Waiting at Any Time’ restriction.

I would advise that a ‘No Waiting’ restriction as stated in the Highway Code means no parking (although during a no waiting restriction, loading and unloading is permitted as long as it is continuous).

The Civil Enforcement Officer first observed the vehicle at 08:54 hours for a period of 5 minutes to see if any loading / unloading was taking place and from the vehicle. As this was not observed, the Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued and the vehicle authorised for removal at 08:59 hours.

You state in your challenge that your rear wheel “was on the double yellow lines by about a foot and and of course the back end was overhanging them”. The notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer state that your vehicle was parked with at least two wheels in the ‘No Waiting’ restriction, signified by the double yellow lines. Vehicles are not permitted to park on double yellow lines Within the Highway Code it state that: “You must not wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby times plates” and “Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs”.

Whilst I appreciate that you state “there was nowhere to park”, the vehicle was “not parked dangerously” and it was “in no way blocking the garage drive”, I must advise that this does not exempt you from the requirement to obey the law. As a motorist, it is your responsibility to ensure that your vehicle is parked entirely legally at all times. If your vehicle is not parked wholly within the legal parking places available, as shown below, alternative legal parking must be sought. [/color]

I would advise that the area is legally signed and the road markings are correct, and all in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The Penalty Charge Notice was therefore justifiably served and remains payable.

With regards to your comments requesting pictures and a copy of the Civil Enforcement Officer’s notes: Please find enclosed with this email a copy of all of the pictures taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer who issued the Penalty Charge Notice; the Civil Enforcement Officer’s notes will not be available until an official Notice to Owner has been sent out to the DVLA registered keeper of the vehicle. The notes will then be available upon request by the registered keeper when a formal representation is made. With regards to the request for a copy of the Traffic Order for the street: this is available by appointment with your local library. Alternatively, you can contact Traffic Management on 0115 8765230 if you wish to discuss the Traffic Order further.

Under the circumstances I am prepared to offer you a further 14 days from the date of this letter in which to pay at the discounted rate of £35.00.

Please note that it is our policy to respond to only one informal letter of challenge against any individual Penalty Charge Notice prior to the Notice to Owner being served. However, if you remain dissatisfied with the above decision, there is a further opportunity to make a Formal Representation (on certain grounds) in response to a “Notice to Owner” which will be automatically issued if no payment is received. You should be aware however, that if any Formal Representation is subsequently rejected, the full £70.00 Penalty Charge will be payable.

The list below are the categories under which motorists may make a Formal Representation:-

• The alleged contravention did not occur
• I was never the owner of the vehicle in question/or
• I had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the alleged contravention occurred/or
• I became its owner after the date on which the alleged contravention occurred.
• The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without consent of the owner
• We are a vehicle-hire firm, the vehicle was on hire under a hiring agreement and the hirer had signed a statement acknowledging liability for any Penalty Charge Notice issued during the hiring period
• The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
• There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority
• The Order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned is invalid
• This Notice to Owner should not have been served because the penalty charge has already been paid.
• If there is any other reasons why you consider the Council should cancel the Penalty Charge Notice, please set out those reasons in full.
Although local authorities have discretion to consider other mitigating circumstances, those described in your original letter are not considered sufficient to justify cancellation.

If a formal representation is rejected by the local authority, there is one final opportunity to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. However, you should be aware that if a Formal representation or Appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal is rejected, the full £70.00 Penalty Charge will be payable.



There was a photo of the car with its wheels over the DYL but that hasn't copied.
It was in Nottingham
Windy
Bogsy - That's awesome, I've a good mind to quote that to them anyway when I send the money!!

QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sat, 21 Jul 2012 - 11:54) *
Bogsy, your finely-tuned "little grey cells" scare me at times! laugh.gif



I think they would scare me too if I knew him better!!
Hippocrates
Unacceptable not to send the CEO's notes and Traffic Order now. According to the law, you - or anyone else for that matter - do not need to make an appointment to view a traffic order.
Windy
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 22 Jul 2012 - 00:37) *
Unacceptable not to send the CEO's notes and Traffic Order now. According to the law, you - or anyone else for that matter - do not need to make an appointment to view a traffic order.


I did think that it was strange that I couldn't see the notes until I had the official Notice to Owner as that seems to say I can't have them at all if I pay the fine now at the reduced rate, because if I do, I won't, presumably, get an official Notice to Owner.

I don't really know though how the notes would help me anyway but thought I'd ask for them as that's what seems to be told on here for people to do.

My main gripe about it though was the fact that I was only about a foot or so over the lines (and overhanging of course), not blocking anything and not causing an obstruction yet got a notice on that they were going to lift the vehicle. I though for the offence, that was OTT. Even someone passing by couldn't believe it had a notice to tow on it. Luckily, I was told about the ticket and moved it before the tow truck came.
hcandersen
The PCN must contain certain information and statements and failure to do this has led to successful appeals. Without the PCN we're blind.

You do not dispute that you were parked on the DYL and that's the start point. An adj could not, IMO, find other than you were in contravention and that the penalty charge is owing because you're not able to present legal argument in your defence: the points you make (blocking, not on the DYL by much etc.) cannot be used by the adj to overturn the council's claim that a penalty is due.

I agree with your frustration but suggest you don't add to it by missing the discount deadline.

HCA
Bluedart
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 22 Jul 2012 - 09:51) *
The PCN must contain certain information and statements and failure to do this has led to successful appeals. Without the PCN we're blind.

You do not dispute that you were parked on the DYL and that's the start point. An adj could not, IMO, find other than you were in contravention and that the penalty charge is owing because you're not able to present legal argument in your defence: the points you make (blocking, not on the DYL by much etc.) cannot be used by the adj to overturn the council's claim that a penalty is due.

I agree with your frustration but suggest you don't add to it by missing the discount deadline.

HCA


I have along with others, been trying to make contact with Paul Saxton. I have been in touch with his next door neighbour who has passed my request to him and I have also written to him, he has not replied.

The reason it is important is, did he appeal on the grounds that his PCN was wrongly worded, or did the sharp eyed adjudicator spot it?

Until that has been established, we will not know for certain what role adjudicators have to play. Do they just deal with what is in front of them or can they if they are clever enough - go looking for other discrepancies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7562131.stm
Windy
Thanks for all your help everybody, I really do appreciate it.
I should have started this process when I first got the ticket but did not know how to post the relevant information and due to work commitments and working away, I did not have time or the access to a scanner etc to be able to do it. It is entirely my own fault.
I'm sure that you good people would have been able to have worked a way around it but as it is so late now, and the deadline is tomorrow, I'll have to just pay the £35 rather than risk having to pay the £70 which it will rise to, neither of which I can really afford.

Thank you again for your help and if something like this happens again, I will be straight on here for help.
You are great people, carry on the good work.

Windy xx

I have to say though, that the more I read the replies from Bogsy and Hippocrates, the more tempted I am to challenge them formally!!

The other part of me says I'm on a hiding to nothing!!
Windy
Well, at the rate I am going, I might well have to make a formal challenge after all.
Its Monday, the day I have until to pay the reduced rate of £35 and I have been on the phone now constantly for over an hour trying to get through to the relevant department or to the council's main switchboard to be put through to pay my fine and both numbers are engaged all the time.
I can't even go down to pay in person as its a PO box address and when I put the post code into Autoroute it says not found.

If I can't pay today, I certainly will be challenging on both Bogsy and Hippocrates suggestions. I won't have anything to lose then.
Hippocrates
Post up the PCN.

Windy
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 23 Jul 2012 - 13:11) *
Post up the PCN.


Hello again,

That was my problem, I got the ticket at the beginning of May it took them all this time to answer my appeal.
During that time I have mis laid the PCN, so can't post it on here.

Anyway, I have managed to find a link to an online payment form on their website so have managed to make the payment.

I know it won't make any difference now but I am going to complain about not being able to have a look at the CEO's notes until it goes to formal complaint and also not being able to freely look at the traffic order without making an appointment at a library, which for a working person, is not always convenient. I don't see why they couldn't have emailed me a copy. I will challenge them on the legality of that.

As for what Bogsy said, I quote from their reply to my appeal, posted above:-
'I would advise that the area is legally signed and the road markings are correct, and all in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The Penalty Charge Notice was therefore justifiably served and remains payable.'
According to what Bogsy posted, this doesn't actually seem the case.

Thanks again for your help

Bluedart
QUOTE (Windy @ Mon, 23 Jul 2012 - 13:33) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 23 Jul 2012 - 13:11) *
Post up the PCN.


Hello again,

That was my problem, I got the ticket at the beginning of May it took them all this time to answer my appeal.
During that time I have mis laid the PCN, so can't post it on here.

Anyway, I have managed to find a link to an online payment form on their website so have managed to make the payment.

I know it won't make any difference now but I am going to complain about not being able to have a look at the CEO's notes until it goes to formal complaint and also not being able to freely look at the traffic order without making an appointment at a library, which for a working person, is not always convenient. I don't see why they couldn't have emailed me a copy. I will challenge them on the legality of that.

As for what Bogsy said, I quote from their reply to my appeal, posted above:-
'I would advise that the area is legally signed and the road markings are correct, and all in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The Penalty Charge Notice was therefore justifiably served and remains payable.'
According to what Bogsy posted, this doesn't actually seem the case.

Thanks again for your help


It does make sense if you believe them. If there is an error, do you think they are going to tell you? They will look for ways to protect their corner even if they know they are wrong. Always bare that it mind!
Money, money, money. Is the name of the game
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