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RossDave
Hi Everyone,

Back in December 2011 I crashed a car whilst driving without insurance, luckily no other car was involved.

I had a fpn through the post and paid £200 fine and got 6 points, this came through around march.

Today in the post i've got a court letter asking me to attend court on 11th July.

In the pack is the option of pleading guilty by post.

The offence stated is driving without insurance? even though i've already paid a fpn?

Do they already know this has been paid? there is a statement from the police saying the passenger was injured.

What do i do, plead guilty by post? if so i need to include a mitigation letter? what do i put in this? I'm honestly sorry about what i've done, i kick myself everyday that i didn't double check with the insurance on my car that I was insured but I'm also so grateful no other car was involved and more people injured due to my stupidity.

Where do i stand with all of this? honestly I'm shaking with fear right now


-- ALSO,

Just noticed the stamp on the envelope says 4th July 2012, this is the date they've posted the letter, this is more than 6 months after the offence???!?
paulajayne
QUOTE (RossDave @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 12:44) *
The offence stated is driving without insurance? even though i've already paid a fpn?



You paid a FPN for what offence?
RossDave
QUOTE (paulajayne @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 12:51) *
QUOTE (RossDave @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 12:44) *
The offence stated is driving without insurance? even though i've already paid a fpn?



You paid a FPN for what offence?



The offence i've been asked to attend court for. if that makes sense, very worried right now about all of this.
Gan
If you've paid an FPN for the same offence you're Not Guilty (Road Traffic Offenders Act S.55)

Have you received confirmation of the payment ? Did you keep a copy of everything you posted ?

Check with DVLA that the points have been added and with your bank etc that the payment was taken.

Even so, if it was simply unpaid without rejecting it, the response should be the recording of an unpaid fine, not a summons
CuriousOrange
What came through around March? Your licence with six points and an IN code on it?

Strictly speaking it's not a matter of pleading not guilty, it's that they can't even haul you up to court at all under the Section listed above. So it's getting them to see that rather than go through the pleading business - if the FPN stuff went through properly.

QUOTE
Even so, if it was simply unpaid without rejecting it, the response should be the recording of an unpaid fine, not a summons
It could only be a CoFP through the post, because he wouldn't have surrendered his licence unless this is far more complicated and wrong than we've been told so far. So a summons would make sense in that context if they thought the CoFP had been ignored.

There's always the possibility that they meant to raise the summons for careless driving and made a mistake.





Gan
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 13:12) *
What came through around March? Your licence with six points and an IN code on it?

Strictly speaking it's not a matter of pleading not guilty, it's that they can't even haul you up to court at all under the Section listed above. So it's getting them to see that rather than go through the pleading business - if the FPN stuff went through properly.

QUOTE
Even so, if it was simply unpaid without rejecting it, the response should be the recording of an unpaid fine, not a summons
It could only be a CoFP through the post, because he wouldn't have surrendered his licence unless this is far more complicated and wrong than we've been told so far. So a summons would make sense in that context if they thought the CoFP had been ignored.

There's always the possibility that they meant to raise the summons for careless driving and made a mistake.


Apologies. Missed the point that it arrived by post and wasn't handed out at the time
RossDave
Thanks for all the replies, yes i've had my license back with the points added to it, says IN10 and the date.

So what do I do now? as in my initial thoughts have been echoed, I've paid so there should be no need for court?
The Rookie
Well first off write and enter a not guilty plea as it will tell you how to do.

Hopefully we can head this off without the need for you to attend court, to be clear the offence date on your licence matches the offence date on the summons?

As the Police will have laid information for the summons I suggest you write now to the central processing/ticketing unit for the force concerned (back up with a phonecall later for a response) explaining the problem.
RossDave
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 13:58) *
Well first off write and enter a not guilty plea as it will tell you how to do.

Hopefully we can head this off without the need for you to attend court, to be clear the offence date on your licence matches the offence date on the summons?

As the Police will have laid information for the summons I suggest you write now to the central processing/ticketing unit for the force concerned (back up with a phonecall later for a response) explaining the problem.


So gotta fill in form as no guilty?

Yes date of offence on license matches that of court summons letter.

Who do I write to? can i not make a phone call explaining the situation for piece of mind today? who would I phone?
mrh3369
Only plead guilty if you want another 6 points and large fine. Plead not guilty and present your evidence of the matter being dealt with by fpn, take a copy of bank statements showing how the fpn was paid and your driving licence and present this as evidence that the matter has been dealt with.
ItchyCrakus
You said the summons stated the Passenger was injured. Obviously that was your passenger, right?

If so, has the passenger done anything since the accident with the authorities or Insurance company.. Can you check with them?
Gan
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:34) *
Only plead guilty if you want another 6 points and large fine. Plead not guilty and present your evidence of the matter being dealt with by fpn, take a copy of bank statements showing how the fpn was paid and your driving licence and present this as evidence that the matter has been dealt with.

Pleading Guilty would see a six months totting up ban

Follow the system and make sure the Not Guilty plea is in place
RossDave
QUOTE (ItchyCrakus @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:38) *
You said the summons stated the Passenger was injured. Obviously that was your passenger, right?

If so, has the passenger done anything since the accident with the authorities or Insurance company.. Can you check with them?


Yes my passenger, no they have not.
ItchyCrakus
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 13:58) *
Well first off write and enter a not guilty plea as it will tell you how to do.

Hopefully we can head this off without the need for you to attend court, to be clear the offence date on your licence matches the offence date on the summons?

As the Police will have laid information for the summons I suggest you write now to the central processing/ticketing unit for the force concerned (back up with a phonecall later for a response) explaining the problem.



The above will get this sorted. Do it in writing!!! GET proof of Posting from you Post Office!!!!!
RossDave
QUOTE (ItchyCrakus @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 13:58) *
Well first off write and enter a not guilty plea as it will tell you how to do.

Hopefully we can head this off without the need for you to attend court, to be clear the offence date on your licence matches the offence date on the summons?

As the Police will have laid information for the summons I suggest you write now to the central processing/ticketing unit for the force concerned (back up with a phonecall later for a response) explaining the problem.



The above will get this sorted. Do it in writing!!! GET proof of Posting from you Post Office!!!!!


Again thank you so much guys for your help you've all been amazing! i was ready to tick guilty, luckily you guys are here!

Right on the form it has down three tick boxes 'guilty by post' 'guilty' and 'not guilty' when on the next page it asks do i have a solicitor and then if ticking not guilty it asks me to get a witness signature? then I've gotta sign, on the next page from this it has a space for mitigation then few pages about financial circumstances.

What do I send off now? can someone explain simply terms exactly what to sent/tick/write just so i get this done right as I'm honestly so worried
andy_foster
Whilst pleading not guilty is not wrong per se, I would be minded to write a letter respectfully inviting the court to decline jurisdiction as the matter was disposed of by way of Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty under s. 75 RTOA 1988, and therefore the current proceedings were instigated unlawfully. I would include a photocopy of your licence and counterpart (particularly the counterpart), and any paperwork you have to hand concerning the COFP.
RossDave
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 15:07) *
Whilst pleading not guilty is not wrong per se, I would be minded to write a letter respectfully inviting the court to decline jurisdiction as the matter was disposed of by way of Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty under s. 75 RTOA 1988, and therefore the current proceedings were instigated unlawfully. I would include a photocopy of your licence and counterpart (particularly the counterpart), and any paperwork you have to hand concerning the COFP.


Could you write a quick letter on here? so I can send off asap, just released court date is not far away so need it posting today!

Do I tick not guilty of just send letter with proof fpn has been paid?
andy_foster
Rough draft...
<Your address>

<Summons ref>

The Clerk to the Justices,
<name and address of court>

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a summons (plea form attached) in respect of an offence of driving without insurance committed on <date of offence>. The matter was disposed of by way of Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty under Part III of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and instigation of any subsequent criminal proceedings for that offence is prohibited by statute. I would therefore respectfully invite the court to decline jurisdiction in this matter.

I enclose copies of <any and all relevant stuff to prove that the matter was indeed disposed of by way of fixed penalty>.


Yours faithfully


RossDave
RossDave
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 15:17) *
Rough draft...
<Your address>

<Summons ref>

The Clerk to the Justices,
<name and address of court>

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a summons (plea form attached) in respect of an offence of driving without insurance committed on <date of offence>. The matter was disposed of by way of Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty under Part III of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and instigation of any subsequent criminal proceedings for that offence is prohibited by statute. I would therefore respectfully invite the court to decline jurisdiction in this matter.

I enclose copies of <any and all relevant stuff to prove that the matter was indeed disposed of by way of fixed penalty>.


Yours faithfully


RossDave


thankyou thankyou thankyou!!

one very last question before i post this off. do i fill in the plea form? or leave it blank?
andy_foster
I would enter a plea of not guilty just to cover all the bases.
RossDave
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 15:27) *
I would enter a plea of not guilty just to cover all the bases.



Thankyou thankyou thankyou!!!!
RossDave
Just to let you all know i've posted the letter by first class recorded and got the proof of posting too.

Sent it to the address where it said to send all corrosondance, will keep you all informed.

You guys have been very selfless and helped me out big time, owe you all a lot!!

Had i not posted on here I would of pleaded guilty but mentioned fixed penalty but as said would of prob lost license as given another 6 points (double punishment) so thanks for all you help and advice.


Ill post back on here when I hear whats happening, hopefully it'll be good news
sgtdixie
May sound stupid but the date and time of the offence is the same as the FPN isn't it?

If it is follow Andy's advice.
RossDave
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 18:34) *
May sound stupid but the date and time of the offence is the same as the FPN isn't it?

If it is follow Andy's advice.



Yes it is, haha thanks yea followed the very good advice given, basically had a FPN, paid and done with, now had a court date relating to the same offence, almost went to plead guilty before posting on here.

RossDave
Hi Everyone!

Just had a letter in the post with a new court date!

Reason: The prosecution has requested an adjournment.

What does this mean ?!
jobo
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:31) *
Hi Everyone!

Just had a letter in the post with a new court date!

Reason: The prosecution has requested an adjournment.

What does this mean ?!

usually that they arnt ready to present their case, have lost witlessness or evidence or have gone away to think about it, looks promising to me
RossDave
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:42) *
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:31) *
Hi Everyone!

Just had a letter in the post with a new court date!

Reason: The prosecution has requested an adjournment.

What does this mean ?!

usually that they arnt ready to present their case, have lost witlessness or evidence or have gone away to think about it, looks promising to me



Huh what do you mean? I was hoping to not have to attend court at all, as already paid a FPN and got points, why the need to attend court?

What do you mean by promising? I'm very scared !!
RossDave
What happens on the day in court?

Do they ask me what my plea is? i ticked not guilty on the reply form (as paid through FPN) and gave evidence.

Would they have requested a new date due to my plea? or would they have not seen my letter by now?
jobo
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:42) *
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:31) *
Hi Everyone!

Just had a letter in the post with a new court date!

Reason: The prosecution has requested an adjournment.

What does this mean ?!

usually that they arnt ready to present their case, have lost witlessness or evidence or have gone away to think about it, looks promising to me



Huh what do you mean? I was hoping to not have to attend court at all, as already paid a FPN and got points, why the need to attend court?

What do you mean by promising? I'm very scared !!


theyalmost invariably dont read things till just before court, if they have now read yopur letter, they have put the court date back till they thing about it, they may yet write to you saying case dropped
RossDave
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 17:01) *
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:42) *
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 16:31) *
Hi Everyone!

Just had a letter in the post with a new court date!

Reason: The prosecution has requested an adjournment.

What does this mean ?!

usually that they arnt ready to present their case, have lost witlessness or evidence or have gone away to think about it, looks promising to me



Huh what do you mean? I was hoping to not have to attend court at all, as already paid a FPN and got points, why the need to attend court?

What do you mean by promising? I'm very scared !!


theyalmost invariably dont read things till just before court, if they have now read yopur letter, they have put the court date back till they thing about it, they may yet write to you saying case dropped


Oh ok that makes more sense now, the court date is for Wednesday next week so unlikely to be told case dropped before then. So looks like I'm attending. What happens when in court? when entering the room will they ask my plea ? if so, i say not guilty? then am i given a chance to present my documents of proof? etc , how will the process work?
RossDave
Really scared about it all!

Really don't understand why ive been given a new date?

What do i do when in court? will they ask my plea? (ticked not guilty on letter I sent off with proof of FPN)

Do i bring the evidence again? if so when/if I get a chance to show it? etc
Logician
I would guess like jobo that your letter was not considered in advance and was read when your case got to court or the day before, and the CPS asked for an adjournment so that they could check that what you wrote was correct and the FPN was really for the same offence.

If you hear nothing more, I should ring the court the day before to check whether your case is still in the list, if it is attend on the day with all your paperwork, both parts of the licence, and proof that you paid. When asked to plead, say the same as your letter, "This matter was disposed of by way of Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty under Part III of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and instigation of any subsequent criminal proceedings for that offence is prohibited by statute. I would therefore respectfully invite the court to decline jurisdiction in this matter" Add that you have supporting documentation to prove that you accepted and paid the fixed penalty.
Glacier2
All you need show them is your licence.
desktop_demon
And on the plus side - its a great feeling going to court and proving the prosecutor is misinformed. As long as you can afford the time to do it.... smile.gif
RossDave
Thanks for the replies guys,

Gonna be nervous on the day.

Legally don't I have to say either guilty or not guilty?

If so, do I say not guilty?, am I then given the chance to present my evidence?

I'll take the evidence with me too, along with my driving license, but im under the assumption my letter is there safe and sound?

Really all thought this was done when sending back the FPN!
andy_foster
Arguably if the proceedings are unlawful (insofar as the police were prohibited by statute from instigating them, rather than in any way suggesting that the actions of the magistrates are in any way improper), then there is nothing [lawful] to plead to.

If you are not afforded an opportunity to respectfully invite the court to decline jurisdiction before being asked to enter a plea, you could make the invitation when asked to plead. If you were to simply plead not guilty, without raising the issue, there is a danger that your case would be on the conveyor belt and simply be scheduled for a subsequent trial hearing. If you are steamrollered into entering a plea, enter a plea of not guilty, but standing your ground now could avoid having to attend further pointless hearings later.
RossDave
Thanks Andy,

Just want to get it all clear in my mind before attending.

The original date for court had some instructions on how to behave when in court and it all seems pretty strict?

So to clarify it will be perfectly acceptable to when asked to plea, simply say 'This offense has been dealt with already through a fixed penalty notice, I have proof with me'

When entering will they take any paperwork I bring off me? or when my case is dealt with will they take it off me then etc?

Not gonna sleep for the next few nights..
Logician
Yes, first invite them to decline jurisdiction, if forced say not guilty. If it goes ahead, the prosecution present their case and you get the chance to ask them questions. In this case "Did you get my letter?" "Did you check the records of FPNs?" "I say this matter has been dealt with by the offer and acceptance of a fixed penalty, and therefore this court has no jurisdiction in this matter, what is your response to that?"

Then it is your turn to present your evidence, if the case is still proceeding, and this is simply the evidence that the matter has already been dealt. The prosecutor then gets the chance to ask you questions, and finally you can sum up your case if you want and the magistrates retire to consider their verdict.
RossDave
ok thanks everyone for the replies, it all seems a lot clearer now as what to do.

Seems from the replies, moving forward the following could happen.

A. I phone the court Tuesday and my case is not listed due to my letter being read between now and the court date.

B. I attend court and ask them to decline jurisdiction with regard to my letter and this is accepted.

C. I have to plead not guilty and show the evidence of FPN and await a verdict.

Cant see it going any other way?

A lot of hassle from a system of FPN which is supposed to benefit both parties.
Logician
QUOTE
A lot of hassle from a system of FPN which is supposed to benefit both parties.


Sometimes things do go wrong, Murphy's Law applies, but it is very unusual for them to go wrong in this particular way.
RossDave
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 20:46) *
QUOTE
A lot of hassle from a system of FPN which is supposed to benefit both parties.


Sometimes things do go wrong, Murphy's Law applies, but it is very unusual for them to go wrong in this particular way.


Huh? thats worried me now! unusual for them to go wrong this particular way?

What do you mean? there must be a reason to want me in court? aside from the same offence as the one i paid a FPN for? surely not, court letter states offence as 'driving uninsured'

:S im worried sick as it is..
Glacier2
I would scald the CPS with a costs order for this cock up.
Logician
QUOTE (RossDave @ Sat, 14 Jul 2012 - 21:19) *
Huh? thats worried me now! unusual for them to go wrong this particular way?

What do you mean? there must be a reason to want me in court? aside from the same offence as the one i paid a FPN for? surely not, court letter states offence as 'driving uninsured'

:S im worried sick as it is..


Unusual for a summons to be issued for an offence already dealt with by an FPN
AndyTrouble
I often wonder with the 'powers that be' that we should just submit a guilty plea and accept the penalty and pay the fine, etc...

Its good that people are prepared to NOT accept what others try to impose upon us to make money for the Government.

I hope all goes well for you.
TheBeak
I can't see this going anywhere.... Your letter will have been received by the court and filed with your case bundle ready for the initial hearing. When it came to your case to be heard the letter would have been read and the CPS prosecutor would have said "Oh sh!t, I need to go away and check on this" and requested an adjournment.

It may be worth speaking to the CPS on Tuesday to see if they have concluded their enquiries and are progressing with the case - they may not have got an answer and may need more time. In which case a call to the court is in order to agree your non attendance. They may have found your FPN and be discontinuing - again a call to the court to check and excuse your appearance would be in order. Unless you want to pursue a Costs Order - though I suggest that your costs to date have been limited to post and telephone calls.
RossDave
QUOTE (TheBeak @ Sun, 15 Jul 2012 - 12:14) *
I can't see this going anywhere.... Your letter will have been received by the court and filed with your case bundle ready for the initial hearing. When it came to your case to be heard the letter would have been read and the CPS prosecutor would have said "Oh sh!t, I need to go away and check on this" and requested an adjournment.

It may be worth speaking to the CPS on Tuesday to see if they have concluded their enquiries and are progressing with the case - they may not have got an answer and may need more time. In which case a call to the court is in order to agree your non attendance. They may have found your FPN and be discontinuing - again a call to the court to check and excuse your appearance would be in order. Unless you want to pursue a Costs Order - though I suggest that your costs to date have been limited to post and telephone calls.


Hi, thanks for the reply,

I googled CPS but can only see contact telephone numbers for use by the police? where can I find a number for me to call?

The bit about agreeing a non attendance on the phone? how do I go about this?
andy_foster
http://www.cps.gov.uk/local/index.html
RossDave
Hello Everyone,

I said i'd keep everyone posted. This morning I rang CPS and was told they don't deal with this sort of problem and gave me a different number to call.

Rang this second number, explained my problem and she took my number and told me she'd call me back once they investigated.

Got a call back half hour later from a different women 'I can only apologise, this has been an admin error, i've just checked on the system, we can see you have paid the FPN and should never have been asked to attend court, I really am sorry. I'll let the court know now whats happened and you do not have to attend, ill give you my name, my name is '''', if there is any come back you can tell them you spoke to me and I advised you that there was an admin error'

Never felt so much relief in my life!

Thank you everyone for the very helpful advice!

I would of taken a completely different course of actions had I not asked you guys first you really are so selfless in your quick responses.

Thank you so much!
Glacier2
Well done.
RossDave
Ok ,

Thought this was all over,

just got a letter today saying the court acted in my absence, been asked to pay £675, also had a letter from dvla asking for my license as they want to add 6 points.

Rang cps again, quoted name from last call and explained it all, she said, 'oh you know what, the cps, we did actually ask them to cancel the case, but they've done this, we've asked them to reopen it, so charge will get cancelled'

What!

Who can i go to, cos things aint moving
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