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snuddin
Hi,

my aunt has just told me about a letter she received from tower hamlets council:


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I realise the date says 25/05/12 and that she was supposed to reply within 14 days, but i only found out yesterday.
Is it too late to make a representation?
If you notice, the alleged contravention took place about 6 months ago and she says she can't remember a thing about it.

your thoughts are welcome. biggrin.gif

oh yh and no she hasn't received a ticket or anything. first she's heard of it.
orford
This not from Tower Hamlets Council, but a private parking ticket from Tower Hamlets Homes.

There is a 3rd option : ignore

very misleading to say 'Make representations to the Council'
snuddin
ahh ok, my mistake.

so am i right to assume that by ignoring my aunt will get red letters /notices / threats /warnings etc. but usually they don't go through with it?

should i ask for evidence?

importantly should i be worried?
Enceladus
This looks to me to a piece of paper concerning private parking ticket = unsolicited invoice.
I stand to be corrected however I suggest you ignore it and any subsequent threatening letters. That is what they are threatening letters that have no legal basis whatsoever. They would have to sue in the County Court and that won't happen because they would loose.

Do not pay any money. Not matter how threatening the letters get.

If I am correct then a moderator please move this thread to the private parking forum. You will get more comprehensive advice there.

QUOTE (snuddin @ Sat, 23 Jun 2012 - 13:26) *
so am i right to assume that by ignoring my aunt will get red letters /notices / threats /warnings etc. but usually they don't go through with it?
Yes! Very likely.

should i ask for evidence?
Absolutely not!. If you cantact them they will act like they have hooked a fish and send even more threatening letters.

importantly should i be worried?
No!

snuddin
Thank you very much.
Now i just need to persuade my aunt NOT to get scared and expect threatening letters (harder than winning a parking case).
Once again thank you.
SchoolRunMum
Here are some links to help convince her. Full details explained as to why we say 'ignore it':

Dealing with from Private Parking Companies (PPCs) - FightBack Forums

A solicitor's view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAIcdi9niHA

A barrister's view:

I have received a Charge Notice for and fine for sleeping in - JustAnswer


The barrister says:

''This is private land fine. They run against the driver not the registered keeper. They are issued by private land companies who have no more right to punish you for the manner of your parking than your neighbours do. Only the police or the local Council can do that.''

The letters they send are just hot air but impersonating authority - just like a series of phishing emails really and very very easy to ignore. Most of us here have ignored several!

No-one with any sense would pay one of these 'parking charge notices'. There is no effect on credit rating as it is NOT a fine, not a debt at all.
Gan
This is coming very close to Fraud if they're holding the keeper/owner liable for a private parking ticket

Rather than representations to the council, wouldn't a formal complaint to the Chief Executive be more appropriate ?
bama
has to be a breach of CPUTR

and looks like fraud S.2 to me ! "you are legally liable even if you were not the driver at the time" - horsefeathers !
is there a second page with name/sig on it ( I doubt it...)
snuddin
there is no name / signature. second page reads:

QUOTE
"If you fail to comply with this notice or fail to provide the correct information as requested, Tower Hamlets Homes Parking Enforcement will do everything in their power to recover outstanding monies, including the use of commercial debt recovery agencies who will pass on all costs associated with the recovery of the CPN to the debtor".


thats it.
Gan
Part of me wants to send a Formal Complaint to the Chief Executive now, alleging fraud
The other part wants to lend Tower Hamlets Homes some rope first.

How about a letter to the address you've been provided ?

Before I decide whether to pay or appeal this ticket I need to understand my legal position

Has the ticket been issued according to a Traffic Management Act ? If so, please point me to the Traffic Regulation Order
If it has not been issued according to a TMA, please identify the legislation that makes me liable as owner according to your letter.


What legislation and section requires me to identify the driver according to your letter ?

Until I receive this information I cannot make an informed decision


Enceladus
QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 13:36) *
Part of me wants to send a Formal Complaint to the Chief Executive now, alleging fraud
The other part wants to lend Tower Hamlets Homes some rope first.

How about a letter to the address you've been provided ?

Before I decide whether to pay or appeal this ticket I need to understand my legal position

Has the ticket been issued according to a Traffic Management Act ? If so, please point me to the Traffic Regulation Order
If it has not been issued according to a TMA, please identify the legislation that makes me liable as owner according to your letter.


What legislation and section requires me to identify the driver according to your letter ?

Until I receive this information I cannot make an informed decision

Maybe snuddin sends the letter using his name and address rather than his aunt.
Personally I would not send anything to anybody. Treat it with the contempt it deserves.
Gan
I would use the Aunt's name and address

If their response to the questions will be further evidence of fraud by a council department and a major contractor, the OP's actions have to be completely above board

If it only involved the PPC, ignoring would be an option.

In this case, however, it's a council deliberately misquoting legislation and threatening involvement of debt collectors to collect money that they know they're not legally entitled to. This is a fightback, not an advice, forum and it needs stamping on
bama
+1
give them even more rope

of course they may recant their position.. sad.gif
as it stands it looks like clear fraud by misrepresentation to me. IMO this is why the letter isn't signed, I believe they do know what they do.

I would suggest formulating the exact content (and tactics) away from prying eyes.
Gan and HO87 are good at such content..
Broadsword
That's a straight forward and urgent complaint to the DVLA.

It is the deliberate misuse of the registered keeper data obtained from the DVLA by falsely representing that the registered keeper is liable.

I would expect them to have their access to DVLA data immediately suspended for this and the matter referred, by the DVLA to the BPA for 'investigation'.

There may also be other breaches of the BPA Code of Practice in respect of the time scales for the obtaining of the data and then contacting the registered keeper.

Have a look at section B13 (page 19) here BPA CoP

This is a fight back forum, therefore that is what you should do.
Enceladus
QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 13:58) *
I would use the Aunt's name and address

If their response to the questions will be further evidence of fraud by a council department and a major contractor, the OP's actions have to be completely above board

I don't know that that is strictly true.
The threatening letter is from NSL services, a private company, acting on behalf of Tower Hamlets Homes. Tower Hamlet Homes will likely be some sort of not for profit limited liability company established by the Council to put the housing stock at arms length. Basically to avoid any responsibility whatsoever for this and the maintenance of the housing stock. And actual management of the estate has likely been farmed out to some private sector for profit company. They will have employed NSL. There may even be some sort of intermediate Housing Association. You could spend months trying to establish who is actually responsible. I think you will find that Tower Hamlets Council are second to none at passing the buck.

I suggested the OP use his name & address, obviously don't admit who was driving, in the hope that the the letter stream would get diverted. It was just a suggestion. If it does not fly, then fine, forget that idea.
Gan
I've assumed that Tower Hamlet Homes is one of these arm's length companies established by the council rather than the council themselves.

The fact remains that they're misrepresenting themselves, claiming the authority of the council and council powers

The only way to rein them in is through a formal complaint to the council's chief executive who won't want it referred to the Local Ombudsman if the OP is treated to a ride on the inter-departmental merry-go-round
Broadsword
There's nothing complicated here - it's route 1 to the DVLA - end of sports.
Gan
QUOTE (Broadsword @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 18:42) *
There's nothing complicated here - it's route 1 to the DVLA - end of sports.

Do DVLA really take meaningful action quickly after one report ?
Broadsword
QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 18:56) *
QUOTE (Broadsword @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 18:42) *
There's nothing complicated here - it's route 1 to the DVLA - end of sports.

Do DVLA really take meaningful action quickly after one report ?



Firstly, NSL have already been flagged to the DVLA on a number of occasions recently for unethical behaviour but this is a straightforward misuse/misrepresentation of registered keeper data - it's there in black and white, no arguments, no excuses, no wriggle room to 'spin' it with another interpretation.

Next, if such a complaint is brought to the attention of the DVLA then they have no alternative but to suspend registered keeper access whilst they instruct the BPA to investigate.

Only last November, David Evans, the (then) Corporate Director of the DVLA, reassured the Parliamentary Transport Committee in his oral evidence that (referring to private parking);

"For vehicles, we use the "reasonable cause" legal gateway, where, if there is an allegation that some damage or harm has been done through the use of a vehicle, the only information the person who alleges the harm has is the vehicle registration number, then we will give them the details of the keeper from whom they can start to make inquiries about who was the operator of the vehicle at the time this harm was done. It is a point of first contact but it does not establish liability at that point".

Also, on this page from the DVLA's own website they give very tough reassurances Frequently asked questions about data release

And if you scroll down to the last question: "What is DVLA doing about details being accessed by criminals"?

The second paragraph gives the very public and firm commitment

"If it is brought to our attention that an organisation may be misusing data we will immediately suspend the release of further data to the organisation and instigate a thorough investigation. Any evidence of abuse will be referred to the Information Commissioner for further investigation and, where appropriate, prosecution".

There you have it, the DVLA has given a public written commitment that two things will happen, firstly they will (not 'may' 'might' or 'consider') suspend the release of data and secondly an investigation will be instigated.

Finally, whilst it would be best if the OP or the 'victim' were to report the facts, there's nothing to stop anyone copying the letter and making their own complaint because as a concerned member of the public they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Game set and match.
emanresu
The more difficult way would be to pay it, then sue TH, TH Homes and NSL under the point that Broadsword made.

However this looks like the format that will be used after October when the Freedoms bill come in. Freedom to shaft anyone in anyway possible.
snuddin
i just found out something else; the vehicles they use to operate in this area are the white vans (unmarked) it looks like this:



in the BPA it says:
QUOTE
Any vehicles you use to undertake enforcement must be marked clearly with your livery (identification mark) or with your business name. In exceptional circumstances, if there is a serious risk of personal injury to your staff through being in charge of a liveried vehicle, you may temporarily remove vehicle livery. But you must replace it as soon as possible.

WageSlave
Well, NSL are BPA members (and members of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme). Why not make a complaint to the BPA? - or to the DVLA?

Perhaps if the DVLA are convinced that they are breaching the BPA's Code of Practice for no good reason they'll revoke or suspend their access to the database.

I know Tower Hamlets has some rough old neighbourhoods but is there really a 'serious risk of personal injury to their staff through being in charge of a liveried vehicle'? It's probably been years since a ticketer or clamper was killed and eaten in Tower Hamlets.

bama
This is interesting. Broadsword makes cogent points about DVLA suspending access.
NSL enforces for lots of councils and accesses the DVLA register zillions of times a week on their behalf.
Can anyone see the DVLA suspending their access ?
yet as broadsword has pointed out they should.
one to watch
snuddin
So should i send a letter to NSL enquiring about my legal position addressed from my aunt?

After i get a reply from them (ill post it on here), and then i can make subsequent complaints to BPA and DVLA???

I am actually thinking of getting a ticket with my car in the same place. might make a stronger case??


QUOTE
I know Tower Hamlets has some rough old neighbourhoods but is there really a 'serious risk of personal injury to their staff through being in charge of a liveried vehicle'? It's probably been years since a ticketer or clamper was killed and eaten in Tower Hamlets.


i actually remember coming back from school one day (around a year or two ago) where a clamper / tower was bleeding from his head, apparently he was beaten up by some local youths after a dispute with the car owner - but he was still adamant that he would tow the car away, the clamper towed the car away after police were called.
hcandersen
And have you got your aunt onside while these games are being played?

We all know that the letter was tosh, and that numerous actions could be taken. But so what? What's your objective? I suspect your aunt's might be just to get the reassurance that she's in the clear. To be honest, just because we know all the whys and wherefores will not necessarily give her the reassurance she needs.

If you want to go into battle against Tower Hamlets Homes on your own account, then that's fine.

But as you said in #1, this is about your aunt - so what are her views? Let's get her needs dealt with first.

HCA
snuddin
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 26 Jun 2012 - 08:31) *
And have you got your aunt onside while these games are being played? yes

We all know that the letter was tosh, and that numerous actions could be taken. But so what? What's your objective? I suspect your aunt's might be just to get the reassurance that she's in the clear. To be honest, just because we know all the whys and wherefores will not necessarily give her the reassurance she needs.

she doesn't need any reassurances. my objectives - Hopefully to get NSL shutdown. if i had a ticket can make two separate cases to the DVLA and BPA assuming it'll be a stronger case.

If you want to go into battle against Tower Hamlets Homes on your own account, then that's fine.
Not necessarily on my own just two separate cases.

But as you said in #1, this is about your aunt - so what are her views? Let's get her needs dealt with first.
She is happy to let it pass, but i'm sure she'll be equally happy to send a few letters if it means NSL don't exist anymore.

HCA

hcandersen
Fine.

Tower Hamlets Homes manages housing services for Tower Hamlets Council.
Tower Hamlets Homes is a trading name of Tower Hamlets Homes Limited, a not for profit company limited by guarantee controlled by the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. Registered in England 06249790. VAT Registration No 912 4819 30. Registered Office: Jack Dash House, 2 Lawn House Close, Marsh Wall, London E14 9YQ.


If you want to hurt NSL, I suggest you go for their employer THH. You can inform them of their contractor's "irregularities" and see what they say.

What is your and/or your aunt's standing vis a vis THH, for example is either of you a tenant or leaseholder? If so, remember that the landlord is TH council, not THH.

If you are tenants etc. then you can put questions to THH Board at public meetings and you can make formal complaints to the council.

For me, the soft underbelly of NSL is THH and by extension, TH council, it's not DVLA or BPA.

HCA
snuddin
I'm a landlord for east end homes and my aunts a tenant for another housing association.
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