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Lrihk
Hi all,

In the past, I ran into problems with PCNs for not displaying a valid parking ticket in NCP and Vinci car parks and from word of advice on the "moneysavingexpert" forums, they made me realised that I should just ignore PCNs from private car companies and now pass this information to all friends/people who run into this problem.

Now this is a whole different matter since I'm not actually dealing with private car companies, but the actual council and would appreiciate help please since I lack knowledge in this area and me being very skint this month due to moving to a new place etc.. I can't really afford to waste money on a PCN and pay the reduced fee in 8 days.. (I could, but will be living off peanuts..) so basically.. HELP ME PLEASE! sad.gif

I normally would pay these off otherwise..

I'll try to explain what happened briefly..

I parked my car on the side of the road as you do for work, and it being a busy day, most of the road sides were taken so I squeezed into one around a bend, behind the junction line because I was scared of getting a PCN because I've had 1 every month at the start of 2012 since moving down in London and it really takes the piss! Never had this problem in Wales.. Ticket Wardens are so petty here! mad.gif

Anyways, me thinking it was safe, I went to work and when I finished, there it was, a bloody PCN on my windscreen!

I was so confused to how I got it because everyone always parks here, and I parked here countless times before and not had any problem!

I had a similar problem before on my first day of work.. I put 2 wheels on a grass section of a pavement just oposite to where I got my recen PCN and the reason I did this is because I wanted to let cars get through easily and was being nice and polite in this estate and instead, I got a PCN... Never even knew that was a offense, but I paid it off.

If there's a good chance of me winning an appeal and not paying the fine, then I will gladly take it and use the money to buy my girlfriend something nice, but if my chances look slim, then I guess I will pay the fine and watch where I park next time.

It's just sooo frustrating that I've had one every month! sad.gif

I've attached pictures since I believe this is the same process which you guys will need in order to help me.. Hope the photos are ok.













Also here is the streetview of the road where it's on if it will help - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=keysham+av...276.96,,0,21.12

If you can help I would really appreciate it!
makara
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?
Neil B
Are you saying you don't understand why you got a PCN?
Lrihk
QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?


I don't quite understand, but this is everything. What you see in the picture is what is on the ticket. I scanned it all.. :s

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:11) *
Are you saying you don't understand why you got a PCN?


I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?




Nope...

There is a flaw but it's the addition of 'and unless this PCN is challenged' on the front which is the rogue wording on Hounslow PCNs. Definitely worth incouding in any appeal to any Hounslow PCN on a windscreen as they seem happy to keep using this wording even though people have won cases at adjudication.



QUOTE (Lrihk @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:52) *
I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*




You mean, you were parked near to the dropped kerb but not in front of the angle of it. I can see what you mean as the angle of it is strange - but the position of your car could be considered to be blocking it - because you are stopping people with prams, etc, from using it to cross over to the one on the other side. Thing is, the two dropped kerbs are not even facing each other...they are both at an angle which is a slightly strange set up.

I would appeal - and why not? - saying you were not in front of the part of the kerb which is lowered to meet the road. From the photos, if you follow the line of the edge of the kerbstones demarcating this crossing place, I do agree you aren't adjacent to it in fact because of the weird angle of it and the way the pavement curves.

Then I suggest a final paragraph touching upon that PCN flaw, maybe saying if they still reject your appeal you will have no hesitation in continuing to appeal ultimately to adjudication. State that you are already aware - as are Hounslow Parking Services - that the wording of their PCN has been found at adjudication to be flawed and you will have no hesitiation in presenting your PCN to the adjudicators for scrutiny on that basis.


HTH
Enceladus
Did you take those pictures at the time?
Or some time later?
Are you able to view the Council's evidence pictures. Go here and enter the PCN number and car reg. https://www.e-paycobalt.com/hounslow
Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 23:57) *
QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?




Nope...

There is a flaw but it's the addition of 'and unless this PCN is challenged' on the front which is the rogue wording on Hounslow PCNs. Definitely worth incouding in any appeal to any Hounslow PCN on a windscreen as they seem happy to keep using this wording even though people have won cases at adjudication.



QUOTE (Lrihk @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:52) *
I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*




You mean, you were parked near to the dropped kerb but not in front of the angle of it. I can see what you mean as the angle of it is strange - but the position of your car could be considered to be blocking it - because you are stopping people with prams, etc, from using it to cross over to the one on the other side. Thing is, the two dropped kerbs are not even facing each other...they are both at an angle which is a slightly strange set up.

I would appeal - and why not? - saying you were not in front of the part of the kerb which is lowered to meet the road. From the photos, if you follow the line of the edge of the kerbstones demarcating this crossing place, I do agree you aren't adjacent to it in fact because of the weird angle of it and the way the pavement curves.

Then I suggest a final paragraph touching upon that PCN flaw, maybe saying if they still reject your appeal you will have no hesitation in continuing to appeal ultimately to adjudication. State that you are already aware - as are Hounslow Parking Services - that the wording of their PCN has been found at adjudication to be flawed and you will have no hesitiation in presenting your PCN to the adjudicators for scrutiny on that basis.


HTH


I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.

That's why I'm baffled, the drop curb is at a angle, same with the one opposite and the others if you look at the street map view. I wouldn't normally park in front of one anyway out of road etiquette.

If I was to appeal then get rejected will I have to pay the full fine or get a further extension after my rejection? Because I'll get paid by then and appealing may help in prolonging my reduced fee time for when I get paid, but again.. If it's a good chance I will get off scotch free then that is always better.

I take it, when I write the letter it has to be very precise and clear/professional? (I fail at writing letters..)

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 01:43) *
Did you take those pictures at the time?
Or some time later?
Are you able to view the Council's evidence pictures. Go here and enter the PCN number and car reg. https://www.e-paycobalt.com/hounslow


I took those pictures as soon as I came out of work and saw that I received a PCN, but here is the PCNs version of the photos as requested:

Enceladus
Seems like the camera was deliberately positioned and the photos selected to make it look like you were obstructing the dropped footway to a much greater extent than you actually were, if indeed you were obstructing?.

When you submit representations make sure that you ask for copies of any and all photos that the CEO took. As well as the CEO's notes

Is that a Renault Clio?I had no idea you could get a stretched limo version? Are the photos really like that?
Lrihk
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 10:53) *
Seems like the camera was deliberately positioned and the photos selected to make it look like you were obstructing the dropped footway to a much greater extent than you actually were, if indeed you were obstructing?.

When you submit representations make sure that you ask for copies of any and all photos that the CEO took. As well as the CEO's notes

Is that a Renault Clio?I had no idea you could get a stretched limo version? Are the photos really like that?


Ha, you joker! Yes, the pictures are like that. I didn't include 3 of the pictures because one of them where of the road sign and 2 is off the PCN on my windscreen, but I guess that's all the pictures taken since it is 6 of them in total.

Is there like a guideline in how to write to the council for appealing or should I just write a draft up and post it on here? (you guys will laugh at my bad grammar..)

I appreciate everyone who's taken their time to read my thread and post on it.

Thanks smile.gif
Enceladus
There are no guideline or template letters on this forum. Bespoke service for all.

Your PCN is dated Tues the 12th June. The 14 day discount window expires on Mon the 25th. Get your initial representations delivered to the Council on or before the 25th and the Council will re-offer the discount even if they reject. Says so on the PCN. So you have nothing to loose by making representations.

I would simply say that the contravention did not occur. You were not obstructing the lowered footway as will be evident from a close examination of the photos. And send them one or two of your own. The fact that the drops are not at right angles to the pavement.carriageway is not your problem. You were either blocking the drops or you were not. As I see it, your photos show that the car was either not blocking at all or possibly the front bumper slightly overhangs. So a "de minimis" at worst.

See what others have to say and by all means post up a draft.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Lrihk @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:07) *
I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.





This was the original thread - with adjudication to quote (case 2100010686):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry444549

Let's see a draft in your own words please, no problems if it's not perfected yet!
Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (Lrihk @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:07) *
I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.





This was the original thread - with adjudication to quote (case 2100010686):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry444549

Let's see a draft in your own words please, no problems if it's not perfected yet!


I'll submit my draft tomorrow night, but I still don't understand the flaw in the wording even after reading the thread. Are you able to break it down for me please why the wording is wrong?

Thanks,

*EDIT*

Oh, I get it now, because I challenged it, it means I don't have to pay it since they had bad wording.

Would you advise me including previous cases like the one you listed in my draft appeal letter?
SchoolRunMum
Yes.
Lrihk
Right, bit delayed, been busy with work, but here is my draft.....

______________________________________________________________________

To whom this may concern,

On the date 12/06/12, I received a PCN for the contravention charge:

(27) Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

This contravention did not occur. I examined my car straight away and it is parked before the lowered footpath. If you examine the photo attached which I have taken at the time, it is evident that from close examination, my wheels/car is parked before the lowered footpath.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/46/20120612175822.jpg

The fact that the footpath drop is at a angle is not my problem. I did not make it this way. The only problem is me receiving a PCN for a fault contravention on the behalf of the CEO.

Upon further examination of the PCN, I have also noticed there is a error with the wording "..and unless this PCN is challenged".

With research online, I came across a case which the adjudication touches on this particular wording. The case in question is "case 2100010686"

Please see attached images of the adjudication verdict:

http://i47.tinypic.com/5dpba9.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/30mwtib.jpg

If my appeal for the contravention is denied, I will then take it further to the adjudication and raise awareness of this particular wording.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxx
SchoolRunMum
Yep, seems simple enough. I feel this one is going to go all the way to adjudication where I feel you would win (hopefully) because otherwise any Council could pretend any car near to a dropped kerb is in contravention if they take a photo at a certain angle!
Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 00:31) *
Yep, seems simple enough. I feel this one is going to go all the way to adjudication where I feel you would win (hopefully) because otherwise any Council could pretend any car near to a dropped kerb is in contravention if they take a photo at a certain angle!


When you say it's going to go all the way to the adjudication does this mean I have to take a day out of work and go court to appeal?

Thanks, for getting back to me by the way! smile.gif
SchoolRunMum
You should plan that, yes, because attending a hearing in person has the best outcome usually. But then again lots of Councils drop out just before the hearing when they realise the appellant is serious and has a good case.

When I said 'all the way to adjudication' Isuppose I kind of meant 'as far as adjudication stage' but not necessarily resulting in a hearing if they fold at the eleventh hour. I just can't see them letting go too early.
bama
its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table
Bluedart
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 22:43) *
its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table


You forgot to mention - he is also independent.
My arse.
Lrihk
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Thu, 21 Jun 2012 - 07:09) *
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 22:43) *
its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table


You forgot to mention - he is also independent.
My arse.


So I will be on my own with no solicitors/advisor? Hmmm, need to be careful with how I word things then if it does go all the way to that room. Fingers crossed it doesn't.

Think I need to be more forceful in my appeal.
bama
clarity and concision rather than force
Lrihk
Right, sent this to them last night:
______________________________________________________________________

To whom this may concern,

On the date xx/xx/xx, I received a PCN for the contravention charge:

(27) Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

This contravention did not occur.

Upon seeing this PCN on my windscreen, I examined my car straight away and saw that it is parked before the lowered footpath. If you examine Image 1 attached which I have taken at the time, it is evident that from close examination, my wheels/car is parked before the lowered footpath.

The fact that the footpath drop is at a angle is not my problem. I did not make it this way. The only problem is me receiving a PCN for a fault contravention on the behalf of the CEO.

Further more, upon close examination of the PCN, I have noticed there is a error within the wording. The wording being "..and unless this PCN is challenged".

With research online, I came across a PCN which shared the similar wording and the appeal made by the defendant being taken all the way to the adjudicator. The case number of this appeal in question is "case 2100010686"

Please see attached images 2+3 of the adjudication verdict:

If my appeal for the contravention is denied, I will not hesitate to take this all the way to the adjudicator as I truly believe I am not at fault and I will raise the awareness of this particular wording during my case.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxxxxx

PCN No: xxxxxxxxx
Car Registration: xxxxxxxxx
______________________________________________________________________

They responded with a automail which is generically sent I think, so will have to wait and see..

______________________________________________________________________

Thank you for your communication.

Your e-mail will be dealt with as soon as possible

Please note that although it is generally Hounslow Council’s aim to answer written and email correspondence within 10 working days, correspondence regarding Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) is covered by different statutory response times. Further information regarding these statutory timescales, as well as other useful information regarding parking, can be found at the following link:

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport...arking/pcns.htm

Please note the instructions printed on the PCN which act as a guideline if you wish to contest it.

If you have submitted correspondence contesting a PCN, the current response time is approximately 28 days.

If your e-mail relates to a permit request, please note permit issues should be sent to parkingpermits@hounslow.gov.uk Your email has been forwarded on this occasion. The Permit Team will respond to your e-mail within 10 working days.

Regards

Parking Services
London Borough of Hounslow
______________________________________________________________________

Also, you wouldn't believe what happened this morning.. I really don't have any luck at all! My fault this time though..

Over slept this morning and forgot to move my car from a single yellow line and my car got TOWED away by a company called NSL who they said works on behalf of Hounslow council.

I normally wake up at 9 to move it every Saturday morning since the restriction hours is 9:30-12:30 on Saturdays, but I forgot this one time and didn't expect it to get towed away instantly with no notice! *sigh*

Any chance of a winning case for an appeal this time round? Had to pay £200 for release fee and £55 for the PCN. mad.gif

Ticket is exactly the same as the one I originally got for the drop curb with the same wording error, so maybe a slim chance of me exploiting this again if my first appeal with the drop curb goes well?

Still can't believe they can tow your car without leaving you any notice etc! Was hell trying to get them to release it because I had no car/insurance documents on me since they are 240miles away at home..

NIGHTMARE!
SchoolRunMum
Start a new thread about the Hounslow towaway with pics of all paperwork obatined at the pound.

Appealing a towaway is a no-brainer, you MUST appeal that because it's a huge amount of money with no risk at all in appealing as you have already paid.
Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 00:06) *
Start a new thread about the Hounslow towaway with pics of all paperwork obatined at the pound.

Appealing a towaway is a no-brainer, you MUST appeal that because it's a huge amount of money with no risk at all in appealing as you have already paid.


Ah, been so busy with work and everything and not had time to start a thread about the towing! Will start one sometime this week!

As for the PCN for this thread, I just had a reply from them
______________________________________________________________________

Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your parking ticket.

You were given a parking ticket for parking against a stretch of lowered, sloping kerb. Kerbs are built like this to allow easy access across them. They exist at different locations for different reasons: to help pedestrians cross the road, especially people with prams or wheelchairs; to allow cars access to garages; and to allow cycles to cross from roads to cycle tracks.

In response to your comments regarding the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (PaTAS) case that you refer to (reference 2100010686), we can confirm that our Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) are compliant with current legislation (Traffic Management Act 2004). The London Borough of Hounslow PCN contains all of the required statutory information and it also contains advisory information. We would advise you that we send over 200 cases per month to the PaTAS and the PCN that must be included in all case submissions is deemed compliant with current legislation.

Whilst we note your comments regarding the angle of the dropped kerb, this does not negate the matter of the PCN issued on this occasion. It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that the vehicle is paid for the entire time it is parked, and in this case it is clear that you parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway. As such we can only conclude that the Notice was issued correctly, and there are no grounds for its cancellation.

Furthermore, It is clear from the photos taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) at the time of the contravention that the vehicle is question was obstructing pedestrians from crossing the road at this location.

In addition to this it is a serious contravention to park near a junction and I would refer you to section 217 of the Highway Code (page 56) which clearly states that motorists must not park “within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction except in an authorised parking space”.

If you would like to review the London Borough of Hounslow Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy this can be found by visiting the following link:

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/parking_traffic...olicy_aug11.pdf

The enclosed photo helps to show why your parking ticket was given.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £55.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £110.00 within 28 days of the date your parking ticket was issued.
• As you have made a challenge (informal representation) you can still make a formal representation against your parking ticket by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the parking ticket has not been paid within 28 days of its issue date. If you decide to make a formal representation against your parking ticket, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives. When the form arrives, it will be too late to pay at the discount rate. The form will guide you through the representation and/or payment options. Should you make a representation that we do not accept, there is a further option to appeal to an independent parking adjudicator at the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. This will be explained in our response to the representation. You must go through the process of making a formal representation with the Council before exercising your rights to appeal. This will enable the independent parking adjudicator to determine whether your case has been considered fully by the Council.

How to pay
• online at www.hounslow.gov.uk and go to 'Pay it'.
• by phone (24 hours) Please have your credit or debit card and Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) ready. Then call 0845 1300 555.
• by post Please make your cheque payable to 'London Borough of Hounslow', write your Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) and vehicle registration on the back, then send it to: London Borough of Hounslow, Civic Centre, Lampton Road, Hounslow, TW3 4DN.

Yours sincerely


Melanie Gadd
Business Processing Manager
Parking Services
______________________________________________________________________

Looks like I'll have to pay.. £55 doesn't seem so much now after the £255 fine for my car being towed..



Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 00:06) *
Start a new thread about the Hounslow towaway with pics of all paperwork obatined at the pound.

Appealing a towaway is a no-brainer, you MUST appeal that because it's a huge amount of money with no risk at all in appealing as you have already paid.


Ah, been so busy with work and everything and not had time to start a thread about the towing! Will start one sometime this week!

As for the PCN for this thread, I just had a reply from them
______________________________________________________________________

Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your parking ticket.

You were given a parking ticket for parking against a stretch of lowered, sloping kerb. Kerbs are built like this to allow easy access across them. They exist at different locations for different reasons: to help pedestrians cross the road, especially people with prams or wheelchairs; to allow cars access to garages; and to allow cycles to cross from roads to cycle tracks.

In response to your comments regarding the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (PaTAS) case that you refer to (reference 2100010686), we can confirm that our Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) are compliant with current legislation (Traffic Management Act 2004). The London Borough of Hounslow PCN contains all of the required statutory information and it also contains advisory information. We would advise you that we send over 200 cases per month to the PaTAS and the PCN that must be included in all case submissions is deemed compliant with current legislation.

Whilst we note your comments regarding the angle of the dropped kerb, this does not negate the matter of the PCN issued on this occasion. It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that the vehicle is paid for the entire time it is parked, and in this case it is clear that you parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway. As such we can only conclude that the Notice was issued correctly, and there are no grounds for its cancellation.

Furthermore, It is clear from the photos taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) at the time of the contravention that the vehicle is question was obstructing pedestrians from crossing the road at this location.

In addition to this it is a serious contravention to park near a junction and I would refer you to section 217 of the Highway Code (page 56) which clearly states that motorists must not park “within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction except in an authorised parking space”.

If you would like to review the London Borough of Hounslow Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy this can be found by visiting the following link:

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/parking_traffic...olicy_aug11.pdf

The enclosed photo helps to show why your parking ticket was given.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £55.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £110.00 within 28 days of the date your parking ticket was issued.
• As you have made a challenge (informal representation) you can still make a formal representation against your parking ticket by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the parking ticket has not been paid within 28 days of its issue date. If you decide to make a formal representation against your parking ticket, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives. When the form arrives, it will be too late to pay at the discount rate. The form will guide you through the representation and/or payment options. Should you make a representation that we do not accept, there is a further option to appeal to an independent parking adjudicator at the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. This will be explained in our response to the representation. You must go through the process of making a formal representation with the Council before exercising your rights to appeal. This will enable the independent parking adjudicator to determine whether your case has been considered fully by the Council.

How to pay
• online at www.hounslow.gov.uk and go to 'Pay it'.
• by phone (24 hours) Please have your credit or debit card and Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) ready. Then call 0845 1300 555.
• by post Please make your cheque payable to 'London Borough of Hounslow', write your Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) and vehicle registration on the back, then send it to: London Borough of Hounslow, Civic Centre, Lampton Road, Hounslow, TW3 4DN.

Yours sincerely


Melanie Gadd
Business Processing Manager
Parking Services
______________________________________________________________________

Looks like I'll have to pay.. £55 doesn't seem so much now after the £255 fine for my car being towed..



hcandersen
So you embarked on this with the idea that if the council rejected your informal challenge you would pay? Pity you didn't make this clear because we could have saved you time and effort - as far as makes any difference, councils never cancel PCNs in these circumstances. In practice you were always faced with putting the full penalty in play and going to adjudication.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but these are the realities.

What photos did the council provide and are they different from the ones you've posted?

In the absence of knowing whether their photos support your argument, IMO (and I know this might not be the consensus) you've not got a strong case as regards the contravention. Also, and I know it shouldn't make any difference, I wouldn't be surprised if the adj's mind was influenced by the fact that you parked in a potentially dangerous place. I think you'll be relying on technical points, and if the quality of their reply to your informal is anything to go by they're capable of repeating their ignorant comments when it counts.

But it's your money.

HCA
Lrihk
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 16:00) *
So you embarked on this with the idea that if the council rejected your informal challenge you would pay? Pity you didn't make this clear because we could have saved you time and effort - as far as makes any difference, councils never cancel PCNs in these circumstances. In practice you were always faced with putting the full penalty in play and going to adjudication.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but these are the realities.

What photos did the council provide and are they different from the ones you've posted?

In the absence of knowing whether their photos support your argument, IMO (and I know this might not be the consensus) you've not got a strong case as regards the contravention. Also, and I know it shouldn't make any difference, [color="#FF0000"]I wouldn't be surprised if the adj's mind was influenced by the fact that you parked in a potentially dangerous place./color] I think you'll be relying on technical points, and if the quality of their reply to your informal is anything to go by they're capable of repeating their ignorant comments when it counts.

But it's your money.

HCA


This point exactly.

At no point did I say I will pay, but by what they argued and raised the point of me parking close to a junction I thought this point alone would make my case very doubtful of wining at the adjudicator stage hence why I said "Looks like I'll have to pay.."

I'm just comparing this fine with the towing fine I had and that I believe time and effort should go in this new thread I'll create this week since I got nothing to lose with that particular case since it's already been paid and that I am at fault..

Also, what did I not make clear? I think I stated all the information regarding my clase within this thread and took my time to supply the relevant documents as well as a street view etc..
hcandersen
The reference to parking close to a junction is irrelevant, it has no part to play in determining your challenge - hence my comment regarding the quality of their reply. Neither, and for the same reason, is obstructing pedestrians relevant.

All that should count as regards the alleged contravention are:

was it a "dropped kerb"?
were you parked adjacent to it?

Do you have their photos which, given that they exist, are their primary evidence?

HCA
bama
reply from council is disgusting, confused duplicitous and wrong - quell suprise !
QUOTE
In addition to this it is a serious contravention to park near a junction and I would refer you to section 217 of the Highway Code (page 56) which clearly states that motorists must not park “within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction except in an authorised parking space”.


bowlocks - contravention of what ? its sure aint that section of the H/C AND ther is no such statutory offence.
amazing that someone trained to and employed to respond to challenges should have such ignorance of the H/C.
unless they are just trained in rejection methods...

and my geometry isn't good enough to picture this
QUOTE
a stretch of lowered, sloping kerb


but as HCA mentions what do their pics show ?
Lrihk
The picture enclosed was these posted earlier in the thread:



She also touches upon that word flawing subject and renders it not a option or is that just crap is well?


QUOTE (Lrihk @ Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 15:30) *
In response to your comments regarding the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (PaTAS) case that you refer to (reference 2100010686), we can confirm that our Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) are compliant with current legislation (Traffic Management Act 2004). The London Borough of Hounslow PCN contains all of the required statutory information and it also contains advisory information. We would advise you that we send over 200 cases per month to the PaTAS and the PCN that must be included in all case submissions is deemed compliant with current legislation.


How should I tackle this appeal?
hcandersen
What's required in the case of these alleged contraventions are pics taken at right-angles to the kerb because it is only this angle which gives a definitive view. Whereas the CEO could be excused for not standing in the middle of the junction in order to obtain one of the two pics required, I cannot find any argument or excuse for the CEO to not take a photo from the pavement as this would have removed all subjectivity from the issue.

IMO, this is probably your best line i.e. that by implication the reason that the definitive photo was not taken was because it did not prove the contravention. Otherwise, why not take it? If you're embarked on making reps, then you need to get the council to commit itself on this point.


HCA
Neil B
Did anyone notice that in amongst it the Council kindly remind him he must pay for all of the time the vehicle is parked??/ WTF.

++ standard misleading statement re patas approval of PCN (forget to mention it is only considered when raised) and that it is always found compliant is simply untrue as the case cited shows.

IMO if it reached adjudication your best bet would be to be holding your hands up to the crap parking but politely pointing out you may not actually be in contravention as far as the law is concerned.
Lrihk
I had a look at the Highway Code and what she supplied was the wrong details, but it is on there:

Click to view attachment

Will I get prosecuted more if I continue with my appeal? Also, do appeals happen on weekends? If it costs me a day of work, in effect I'm losing money just to get my £55 dropped.. That's if it gets dropped and if it goes to worst case scenario, I'll get charged £110 along with additional fees?

Have people actually won this way except this one particular case which has been posted?

Thanks for all your advice peeps.

Really appreciate it!

bama
You need to read the other parts of the H/C - it will point to the actial legislation when and of it applies.
the H/C is not law and you can't get done for breaching it. It can be usied in evodnce if you are prosecuted under one of the Road Traffic acts buts that not the case with council parking ticket.
and there is no statutory offence of parking within 10 metres/yards/whetever of a junction.
QUOTE
Will I get prosecuted more if I continue with my appeal?

you are not being prosecuted, not at all

QUOTE
Also, do appeals happen on weekends?

I believe so. you may also be able to do it by telephone.
QUOTE
if it goes to worst case scenario, I'll get charged £110 along with additional fees?

no additional 'fees'
tocsin1
The confusion is confusing me. Looking at the photos, it is obvious to me that if you were to draw lines perpendicular to the curb at the points where the dropped curb sits then one of them would intersect the car. The defence on this point would have to be one of de minimis. And it is for this reason that a square-on photo would have been of interest. I imagine it would have shown the car a good foot over the dropped curb, which doesn't really feel like de minimis. That said, I find it hard to imagine that the OP was parked in such a way that someone on wheels would be unable to use the dropped curb, so it does seem a bit harsh. But that Council PCNs I suppose.
hcandersen
You may wait for the Notice to Owner (you are the registered keeper?); you may make formal representations and these might be rejected by the council (in reality, there's little chance that they'd accept them unless they served a really fouled-up NTO).

At that stage the council may re-offer the discount, but they're not obliged to. So, by waiting for the NTO you are potentially putting £110 at risk as opposed to £55.

If the council were to reject your reps, you could appeal. This would be against the full penalty of £110. You could be successful, or you could fail. If you were to fail, your liability would be only a financial penalty of £110

You could pay £55 now if you're within the 14-day period.

The only certainties in life are death and taxes.

HCA

Lrihk
*sigh*

Guess I will pay it then.. F*cking CEOs.. Guess I'll try the wording thing with the towing appeal when I start a thread since I got nothing to lose.. Thanks for all your help and advice!
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Lrihk @ Sat, 30 Jun 2012 - 17:11) *
*sigh*

Guess I will pay it then.. F*cking CEOs.. Guess I'll try the wording thing with the towing appeal when I start a thread since I got nothing to lose.. Thanks for all your help and advice!




Shame. They do not have a photo of the car in contravention IMHO. The CEO took photos at a pretty severe angle and if that's OK then they could do that for any car which was vaguely near a dropped kerb! It's the 90 degree angle that would show the contravention or not and they do not have it.

It was always an 'all or nothing' situation as are most cases on here. Almost every single poster gets a rejection at this stage and you can even tell it's a template letter!

The £55 was never relevant if you were to appeal this properly and fully - and the rejection letter was to be expected. Personally I think you've read it and swallowed it whole, whereas some of us here read it and snorted with laughter at the bit about 'paying to park' and the mention of the Highway Code, and the bit where she protests too much about the PCN wording.

They always say their PCNs are compliant - what did you expect the Council to say? - but since the case we saw where an adjudicator said the wording was flawed, whenever anyone else has cited that point in their appeal we haven't seen Hounslow let it go to adjudication! She says they have lots of cases go to adjudication - yep I am sure they do, but I suspect not where someone cites the flaw as an actual appeal point...the man in the street would not know.

If you haven't paid it yet and still fancy appealing it then you could just put it on the back burner until you get the NTO, and turn your attention to that important TOWING appeal!
Lrihk
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 30 Jun 2012 - 21:51) *
QUOTE (Lrihk @ Sat, 30 Jun 2012 - 17:11) *
*sigh*

Guess I will pay it then.. F*cking CEOs.. Guess I'll try the wording thing with the towing appeal when I start a thread since I got nothing to lose.. Thanks for all your help and advice!




Shame. They do not have a photo of the car in contravention IMHO. The CEO took photos at a pretty severe angle and if that's OK then they could do that for any car which was vaguely near a dropped kerb! It's the 90 degree angle that would show the contravention or not and they do not have it.

It was always an 'all or nothing' situation as are most cases on here. Almost every single poster gets a rejection at this stage and you can even tell it's a template letter!

The £55 was never relevant if you were to appeal this properly and fully - and the rejection letter was to be expected. Personally I think you've read it and swallowed it whole, whereas some of us here read it and snorted with laughter at the bit about 'paying to park' and the mention of the Highway Code, and the bit where she protests too much about the PCN wording.

They always say their PCNs are compliant - what did you expect the Council to say? - but since the case we saw where an adjudicator said the wording was flawed, whenever anyone else has cited that point in their appeal we haven't seen Hounslow let it go to adjudication! She says they have lots of cases go to adjudication - yep I am sure they do, but I suspect not where someone cites the flaw as an actual appeal point...the man in the street would not know.

If you haven't paid it yet and still fancy appealing it then you could just put it on the back burner until you get the NTO, and turn your attention to that important TOWING appeal!


I haven't paid yet, still contemplating it.. But just gauging the situation, since I have 2 appeals to make and I might just let this one slip and as you said, turn the attention to the towing appeal which is the main importance since it is £255! I guess I WILL use that wording flaw as a appeal and maybe anything else when we have a discussion about it..

Thread should be up tonight, I scanned pictures in of all the letters, but they didn't supply me with pictures.. :/

Also, tt's great how helpful and informative the people on the boards are here! So again.. Thank you! smile.gif
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