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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Edward Holland
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2012
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M4 Junction 19-20 Westbound > Wales
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I arrived home last week to find three speeding tickets each for a speeding offences on three consecutive days on the same stretch of the M4. Each time I was caught driving at an average of 57 MPH in a restricted 50 MPH zone. I called up the Avon speed unit who informed me that as I have been driving for under two years (but so far have a clean licence and no motoring offences or traffic collisions) that I could take the speed awareness course for the first incident but for the latter two incidents I would have to write a letter explaining that I was a "New Driver" and that my offences would have to go before a magistrate. (I have not replied in any way yet to the NIP's)

I currently commute 35 minutes on the motorway to work (from Stroud to Bristol), I am fully aware (and sorry) that I have broken the law but if I did lose my license I would not be able to travel to work. I work a very stressful 24/7 job (including working "on-call") coordinating organ transplants for the NHS and was travelling home on each occasion from work. I've already approached my boss and she is willing to write a letter explaining the necessity for me to have transportation in order to be on-call and keep my job, I also would not have a problem finding someone to write a character reference letter.

From what I can understand from my research I cannot avoid this going to court and cannot avoid seeing a magistrate, the best I can hope for is to plead my case based on the above factors and hope for leniency of reducing my points to three points and a 14 day driving ban.

I guess my main questions are; am I correct in my assumptions? How challenging/successful would it be for me to represent myself in court? Would hiring legal representation (I've been quoted £625 from a solicitor who is 80% sure he can get me off) be necessary? Is there any other defence or anything really I'm missing or any advice anyone would like to give me?

Thanks in advance

Ed


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:23:48 +0000
BaggieBoy
You almost certainly will be offered fixed penalties for two of the offences, beng a new driver doesn't mean they will take you to court. The bad news is that then the DVLA will revoke your licence if you accept the 6 points. So the only way to get to court is to not accept the fixed penalties. The further bad news is that you are very unlikely to get a better result in court, the courts have been requested to not ban drivers under these circumstances and so you will probably end up with 6 points anyway.

MartinHP71
QUOTE (Edward Holland @ Wed, 13 Jun 2012 - 22:23) *
(I've been quoted £625 from a solicitor who is 80% sure he can get me off)


Its either interesting or worrying that a solicitor thinks he can get you off.

Did you say how he or she might achieve this ?

Baggie Boy has summed it up and it would be hard to persuade a magistrate to not impose the minimum punishment which would lead to your license being revoked by DVLA.

You can however apply for your license back again as soon as you have passed a driving test (and theory) again so with planning it could be within a day or two.
Aretnap
If the magistrates can be persuaded to impose a short ban (say a week or two) instead of three points for one of the offences then it would be possible to avoid having your licence revoked. The problem is that as BaggieBoy says they have explicit guidance not to do this - see here p186

QUOTE
24. Drivers who incur six points or more during the two-year probationary period after passing the driving test will have their licence revoked automatically by the Secretary of State; they will be able to drive only after application for a provisional licence pending the passing of a further test.14
25. An offender liable for an endorsement which will cause the licence to be revoked under the new drivers’ provisions may ask the court to disqualify rather than impose points. This will avoid the requirement to take a further test. Generally, this would be inappropriate since it would circumvent the clear intention of Parliament.

That said there are courts which are willing to overlook this guidance if they're given a good enough reason. The solicitor may know the local court well and think there's a good chance that he can persuade them to do this or... he may not. Is he able to provide concrete examples of success in similar circumstances?
The Rookie
If a solicitor can get 80% of his clients off, then they would surely be able to charge a lot more than £625! I'd be asking him some searching questions....is he even a motoring specialist?

Some scammers in the past have been willing to drop a case in these circumstances (leaving you a SAC, 3 points and driving like miss daisy), but not apparently Avon.

At least you now know how an average speed camera works!
henrik777
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 08:16) *
If a solicitor can get 80% of his clients off, then they would surely be able to charge a lot more than £625! I'd be asking him some searching questions....is he even a motoring specialist?

Some scammers in the past have been willing to drop a case in these circumstances (leaving you a SAC, 3 points and driving like miss daisy), but not apparently Avon.

At least you now know how an average speed camera works!



http://www.fixedfeelawyer.co.uk/choose-a-fixed-fee/

This would indicate that £625 isn't the issue you make it.

The solicitor said this client has an 80% chance as i read it not that he gets 4/5 people off.
The Rookie
Yes but to have an 80% chance you would be getting 4/5 similar cases a not guilty verdict..........and if you can do that you can charge a lot more as footballers would be forming a queue round the block!
Logician
Courts have no power over the revoking of licences, which is an administrative function, so unless you go to court and persuade them to give you a ban instead of points, which there is little basis for doing, then your licence will be revoked. You then have to take all your test again, but you can do that as soon as you can book it. That is the basis you should plan on.
jimster
Any point in the OP begging asking the scammers if they would drop one the the offences?

The OP committed the 2 susequent offences before he was aware of the first one and therefore could not modify his driving behaviour

Worth a punt?

The Rookie
Read his posts, he's tried and they won't.....
jimster
QUOTE (Edward Holland @ Wed, 13 Jun 2012 - 22:23) *
I called up the Avon speed unit who informed me that as I have been driving for under two years (but so far have a clean licence and no motoring offences or traffic collisions) that I could take the speed awareness course for the first incident but for the latter two incidents I would have to write a letter explaining that I was a "New Driver" and that my offences would have to go before a magistrate.

Perhaps he spoke to the wrong person?

Why not post all three back in one envolope with a nice letter?

The Rookie
Well all worth a try of course......
Edward Holland
Hello All, and thank-you very much for your advice gentlemen.

The solicitor who quoted me the £625 fee is a chap from this company. http://www.motoringlawdefence.com/

He claims he knows the prosecutors/magistrates well in the Bath magistrates court and can have a dialogue with them pre-hearing, I think I mostly believe him (more fool me?). Has anyone had any experience with these chaps before?

His advice was that if the three incidents were on the same day I think I'd have a reasonable case for writing them a letter and asking it to be regarded as the same incident, but as they're 24 hours apart the police would not take this view.

He explained that while it is not normal for the courts to do anything other than just give me the 6 points and take my licence away he's confident that with a letter from my boss (explaining the nature of my job and necessity to have a vehicle at all times as I can be on-call 24/7) and a good character reference he can get it reduced to 3 points and a small ban.

I'm aware that if I reach 6 points and have my licence taken away all I'd have to do is to re-take both my tests but I wouldn't be able to book them until after I apply and receive my new provisional licence, and given the waiting time for driving tests I think the whole process would take around 2/3 months.

Also I'm waiting on email replies from the DVLA and my insurer on how each possible outcome would effect my insurance, anyone have any ideas on this?

Whatever happens I'm going to have to pay £80 for the speed awareness course and a fine from the court (£100-300?), but I guess the real question is whether I'm prepared to gamble £625 on chance of a two week ban and three points, or have my licence take away, pay £200 (new licence, test fees etc) and have 2/3 difficult months without a vehicle (If I pass my test first time, which I guess there is always a chance that I could fail.)

At the moment I'm leaning towards taking my chances with the solicitor in court (not really what I wanted to spend my savings on!!), but what would you chaps do in my position?

And yes, now I know how average speed camera's work smile.gif But driving past them at similar speeds every day to work for the past 8 months left me mightily complacent, I fought the law and the law won!
Pete P
Do a dummy insurance quote for a similar postcode to yours with a 2 week ban and 3 points and see how much the premium goes up.

Either way you're screwed and I don't see how you are going to get off this. If you accept fixed penalties for the 2nd and 3rd offence then the fine is £60 per offence. If you go to court and lose the fine is higher and you also pay court costs.

Personally I would just take the SAC and FPNs, re-apply for my licence and get back on the road as soon as possible. That way I would minimise my financial losses.

You could fight it in court with the solicitor but there's no guarantee you'd win and you'd still be lumbered with the huge solicitors costs and also the bigger fines.
Edward Holland
Well, from what the Speed Unit said whatever happens I'm going to court.

As I'll be reaching 6 points in my first two years I have no option to just pay £60 fixed penalty fines so I'll have to pay the court fee's plus the fine whatever I choose to do.

But setting up a dummy insurance quote is a good idea, thank-you smile.gif
The Rookie
QUOTE (Edward Holland @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:09) *
Well, from what the Speed Unit said whatever happens I'm going to court.

It would be abnormal for that to happen, trust us we see a lot of these, normally you will be offered to FP's.
Aretnap
QUOTE (Edward Holland @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:09) *
Well, from what the Speed Unit said whatever happens I'm going to court.

As I'll be reaching 6 points in my first two years I have no option to just pay £60 fixed penalty fines so I'll have to pay the court fee's plus the fine whatever I choose to do.

The person who told you that was talking rubbish - there's no reason why you can't be offered and accept fixed penalties as a new driver approaching 6 points - in fact the New Driver's Act specifically makes provision for what happens when you do. People sometimes get confused about this because drivers who are on 9 points and in line for a totting ban can't accept a fixed penalty, but the two procedures are completely different and revocation is not the same thing as a ban. Hopefully it was just the phone monkey who is confused, and not the whole camera unit.
Edward Holland
OK, well for now I'll have to take your advice, I phoned the Speed Unit to clarify the exact situation RE going to court but they told me they weren't sure (unbelievable) and that I'd have to phone the fixed penalty office, which is now closed till Monday! And trying to speak to someone from the DVLA is like wading through treacle. It's good to see the people that are prosecuting me are so gemmed up on the law...
ict_guy
Personally, I would go with the cheapest option - SAC and 2*FPN. Save my money for the paying of the driving test, insurance hikes etc

You will most certainly be offered a FPN for the latter two offences and will not be going to court. The DVLA will no doubt take about a month to write to you regarding revokation.

Paying a solicitor and having to go to court will cost you much much more and there is a fair chance you'll end up with the same penalties (in terms of 6 points)!!!!
Edward Holland
Well, thanks for all your advice chaps.

I'm going with the cheap and sensible option and am sending off my letters shortly taking the SAC and the two FPN's on the chin and just getting my tests booked as quickly as possible once the DVLA revokes my licence.

Thanks again.

Ed
Kickaha
Send them all in one envelope and ask nicely if they would treat two of the offences as one and issue you with 3 points and an SAC. It is worth a try and you have nothing to lose.
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