Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Lambeth Parking PCN - Whilst registering with Pay by Phone
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
mg82
Hi,

I was recently issued a ticket whilst registering for the Pay by phone option. The CEO issued this whilst I was at the post registering on the phone. The CEO put this on whilst I was away from the vehicle - I did protest at the time but he said you should remain with the vehicle at all times.

Can probably provide phone records with the call times as proof. I hope to appeal to them, but I take it an appeal to PATAS comes after the NTO is served and at the risk of not getting the 50% reduced rate?

Can anyone help?

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment
marvin28
QUOTE (mg82 @ Thu, 7 Jun 2012 - 13:07) *
I take it an appeal to PATAS comes after the NTO is served and at the risk of not getting the 50% reduced rate?


That's right.
SchoolRunMum
Yep, that's correct and sounds like a worthwhile appeal if there are clearly minutes difference and you were registering for the first time so needed to read the info on the post.

When Lambeth first introduced this, there was a Press Release I just found, in 2009. A Councillor said this:

''Councillor Sally Prentice, Cabinet member for Environment on Lambeth Council said:

"This scheme is designed to take the hassle out of parking in Lambeth and means motorists will no longer need to scramble around for loose change. And because you can pay to top up your time from wherever you are, it means you avoid the problem of overstaying and potentially getting a parking fine.

"We appreciate that not everyone will be able to use this system so we will be keeping cash pay and display machines and running the two systems side by side."

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/PressReleases/Pr...ngToLambeth.htm

I would quote that if it were me! But you may want to save that for a formal appeal if it goes that far.

At this stage, keep the appeal polite and simple, along the lines that:

'it seems the CEO didn't notice at first, that I was at the adjacent PBP post setting up my payment by phone at that very moment. Here's my evidence (phone log maybe) and I trust this is enough to cancel the PCN at this early stage seeing as this was simply a misunderstanding and the CEO did in fact see me but the PCN was by then already issued.

If I had been paying with cash at a pay and display machine then I would not have been at my car either, but I would not expect to get a PCN in the few minutes when paying and then placing a P&D ticket on my windscreen, so I was very surprised to get one for choosing the PBP option. It appears that I was disadvantaged by choosing this payment method which I am sure is not the aim of Lambeth Council. If you decide to reject my appeal I would require a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of the Traffic Order for that place along with all maps and amendments and the Pay by Phone Order/Resolution documents.''
mg82
Hi All, I made representations against the Penalty Charge Notice and mailed it back recorded delivery on 8th June, however I only received a [rejection] reply on 16th August.

Is the 56 day rule only applicable for a formal representation in response to a notice to owner, or does it apply to this also?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
bama
56 days applies to response to normal reps to a TMA NTO (or reg 10 TMA PCN)
so does not apply to your challenge to the PCN
mg82
OK, thanks.

I am considering whether it is worth appealing this one as there is downside - once they remove the 50% discount - currently offered.

I do have a copy of their Pay By Phone logs - which show various calls to their call-centre at the time of the PCN being issued [and starting 5 minutes before]. It took a little longer to register the car, but unfortunately was not with the vehicle at the time.

Whilst this does demonstrate that an effort was being made to make the payment - is it decent enough grounds in an appeal?
Gan
I would regard it as reasonable grounds for an appeal.

In fact I would go further and add that if forced to adjudication you will apply for costs that result from their unreasonable behaviour

Nobody is going to make that call from their car for the simple reason that you need to be standing at the machine to make sure you're entering the correct location. I'd include the absurd statement from the CEO in the appeal and ask if these were his official instructions.

Assuming you eventually made the payment, take it all the way.

Their policy is to reject all informal appeals regardless of merit and rely on the discount to soak up the less-confident clients.

Don't think they would want this in front of an adjudicator if you call their bluff
treetrunk
QUOTE (mg82 @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 14:55) *
Hi All, I made representations against the Penalty Charge Notice and mailed it back recorded delivery on 8th June, however I only received a [rejection] reply on 16th August.


Please post up your appeal and the rejection you have received.
mg82
Here is the representation:


To whom it may concern, 08 Jun 2012

Re: PCN No: xxx

I wish to appeal against the penalty charge served upon me on the following grounds which are covered in further detail in this letter.
It seems the CEO didn't notice at first, that I was at the adjacent PBP post setting up my payment by phone at that very moment they issued the PCN. I can provide evidence (phone log) of this call to the Pay By Phone number having started prior to the PCN being issued, and I trust this is enough to cancel the PCN at this early stage seeing as this was simply a misunderstanding and the CEO did in fact see me but the PCN was by then already issued. However, and due to the 14 day restriction on the appeal, this has not allowed sufficient time for the phone company to provide the normal itemised statement.
If I had been paying with cash at a pay and display machine then I would not have been at my car either, but I would not expect to get a PCN in the few minutes when paying and then placing a P&D ticket on my windscreen, so I was very surprised to get one for choosing the PBP option. It appears that I was disadvantaged by choosing this payment method which I am sure is not the aim of Lambeth Council.
If you decide to reject my appeal I would require a copy of the CEO's notes, all photos taken and a copy of the Traffic Order for that place along with all maps and amendments and the Pay by Phone Order/Resolution documents.
I trust that you will accept this and cancel the PCN so we can resolve this without needing to escalate this to PATAS.
Yours,
mg82
Here is the rejection [has been redacted - for references, registration etc]:





Thanks for helping!

As I mentioned before - I have the computer logs from the Pay by Phone operator company. I will upload tomorrow - if this is useful?

As I mentioned I have the computer logs from the Pay by Phone operators - I can upload this tomorrow if this is useful?
Tangram
I have had a situation over a year ago that a PCN was issued even though I called and paid for the Parkmobile service in the usual way I always do. At the time I provided an extract from the phone bill showing the call being made and Wandsworth Council allowed the appeal.
In July this year I had exactly same situation and I appealed immediately, I made a call at 13:46 which lasted for 37 seconds, I went through the questions and options and pressed 1 to confirm parking. To my astonishment on return I found a ticket on the windscreen. The parking has call has never registered and the Parkmobile people had no record of it. I have written all this on the representation, but it is rejected by same Wandsworth Council. Parkmobile people are helpful and offered to write to the Council in my support, you should ask them the same that you were paying for the ticket at the time. Get telephone records to show the call being made also and send it to the Council. I will be fighting it all the way to the Tribunal if necessary, but it is up to you if you feel it is not worth the time spent on it.
Lambeth are horrible parking people, not like Wandsworth, so it may be a more difficult task all together!
The Slithy Tove
Their reasons for rejection are just rubbish. If they hadn't chosen to adopt a payment system that is cumbersome in the extreme to register, and will always take more than 5 minutes (plus raised blood pressure), then it wouldn't be a problem. Instead, they have introduced a heads-I-win tails-you-lose system, which is blatantly unfair (AND they expect you to pay MORE for the so-called convenience of it all). Definitely take this further. It makes you so mad, you want the individuals responsible for such stupidiy to have to pay your costs out of their own pocket, rather than the council tax payers having to foot the bill for their lack of professionalism. </rant>
mg82
Here is the Pay by Phone operators computer logs - which show that an attempt was being made to make payment before the PCN was issued, chronologically it starts at the foot of the list:




Does the PCN and rejection letter look ok to everyone? It would obviously strengthen my case if there were some procedural impropriety that I could add.
mg82
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 22:22) *
Their reasons for rejection are just rubbish. If they hadn't chosen to adopt a payment system that is cumbersome in the extreme to register, and will always take more than 5 minutes (plus raised blood pressure), then it wouldn't be a problem. Instead, they have introduced a heads-I-win tails-you-lose system, which is blatantly unfair (AND they expect you to pay MORE for the so-called convenience of it all). Definitely take this further. It makes you so mad, you want the individuals responsible for such stupidiy to have to pay your costs out of their own pocket, rather than the council tax payers having to foot the bill for their lack of professionalism. </rant>



Thanks for your advice - it is very frustrating!
mg82
QUOTE (Tangram @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 18:42) *
I have had a situation over a year ago that a PCN was issued even though I called and paid for the Parkmobile service in the usual way I always do. At the time I provided an extract from the phone bill showing the call being made and Wandsworth Council allowed the appeal.
In July this year I had exactly same situation and I appealed immediately, I made a call at 13:46 which lasted for 37 seconds, I went through the questions and options and pressed 1 to confirm parking. To my astonishment on return I found a ticket on the windscreen. The parking has call has never registered and the Parkmobile people had no record of it. I have written all this on the representation, but it is rejected by same Wandsworth Council. Parkmobile people are helpful and offered to write to the Council in my support, you should ask them the same that you were paying for the ticket at the time. Get telephone records to show the call being made also and send it to the Council. I will be fighting it all the way to the Tribunal if necessary, but it is up to you if you feel it is not worth the time spent on it.
Lambeth are horrible parking people, not like Wandsworth, so it may be a more difficult task all together!


Thanks for your post - I take it that this is still ongoing? Aside from the enforcement authority just being reasonable - have you found any official guidance for this type of situation, that may add weight to my case?

Thanks again!

QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 16:00) *
I would regard it as reasonable grounds for an appeal.

In fact I would go further and add that if forced to adjudication you will apply for costs that result from their unreasonable behaviour

Nobody is going to make that call from their car for the simple reason that you need to be standing at the machine to make sure you're entering the correct location. I'd include the absurd statement from the CEO in the appeal and ask if these were his official instructions.

Assuming you eventually made the payment, take it all the way.

Their policy is to reject all informal appeals regardless of merit and rely on the discount to soak up the less-confident clients.

Don't think they would want this in front of an adjudicator if you call their bluff


Thanks I will! If this did reach PATAS is there any official guidance they have to follow in this situation? I'm concerned that the authority will just make the case that I had left the vehicle unattended for 5 minutes, therefore by the letter of the law they had every right to issue the PCN, irrespective of whether I was in the act of trying to pay.

QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 16:00) *
I would regard it as reasonable grounds for an appeal.

In fact I would go further and add that if forced to adjudication you will apply for costs that result from their unreasonable behaviour

Nobody is going to make that call from their car for the simple reason that you need to be standing at the machine to make sure you're entering the correct location. I'd include the absurd statement from the CEO in the appeal and ask if these were his official instructions.

Assuming you eventually made the payment, take it all the way.

Their policy is to reject all informal appeals regardless of merit and rely on the discount to soak up the less-confident clients.

Don't think they would want this in front of an adjudicator if you call their bluff


Thanks I will! If this did reach PATAS is there any official guidance they have to follow in this situation? I'm concerned that the authority will just make the case that I had left the vehicle unattended for 5 minutes, therefore by the letter of the law they had every right to issue the PCN, irrespective of whether I was in the act of trying to pay.

QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 16:00) *
I would regard it as reasonable grounds for an appeal.

In fact I would go further and add that if forced to adjudication you will apply for costs that result from their unreasonable behaviour

Nobody is going to make that call from their car for the simple reason that you need to be standing at the machine to make sure you're entering the correct location. I'd include the absurd statement from the CEO in the appeal and ask if these were his official instructions.

Assuming you eventually made the payment, take it all the way.

Their policy is to reject all informal appeals regardless of merit and rely on the discount to soak up the less-confident clients.

Don't think they would want this in front of an adjudicator if you call their bluff

Thanks I will! If this did reach PATAS is there any official guidance they have to follow in this situation? I'm concerned that the authority will just make the case that I had left the vehicle unattended for 5 minutes, therefore by the letter of the law they had every right to issue the PCN, irrespective of whether I was in the act of trying to pay.

QUOTE (treetrunk @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 16:47) *
QUOTE (mg82 @ Tue, 21 Aug 2012 - 14:55) *
Hi All, I made representations against the Penalty Charge Notice and mailed it back recorded delivery on 8th June, however I only received a [rejection] reply on 16th August.


Please post up your appeal and the rejection you have received.

Thanks - please see posts below. Let me know if you would like anything else. biggrin.gif
mg82
Any further thoughts on this?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.