NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2012
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Nutwell Lane near Eastfield Road, Armthorpe, Doncaster
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I've filled the form in from the perspective of my Dad who is the RK of the car. The NIP was sent to to him today (05/05/2012) and he will be returning the section 172 in due course providing my details. Both his first and last name are spelt incorrectly on the NIP (1 letter missing from each, for example Jo Boggs instead of Joe Bloggs).

The alleged offence is "Exceed 30mph (Camera). Speed detected was 35mph" and the time of the offence was 20:10.

The 30mph limit is preceded by a national speed limit stretch. The signage for the 30mph is reasonably good.

I (not my Dad) have 0 points and have never taken a SAC. How to proceed?

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

• Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
  You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.
  
  (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 05 May 2012 19:17:19 +0000

He names you, you get your own form in due course. Hopefully you get a course.

Have been reading through various other posts on the forum and how/where do the ACPO guidelines come into play, 35mph being 10% + 2 on 30mph.

"1) Increase the speed limit and rigidly stick to this (at the moment there is a ‘tolerance zone’ where guidelines suggest no prosecution for 10 per cent plus two mph)." (April 2011) Source: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnew...have-as-my-boss

and

"Although speeding is an absolute offence which means you could in theory be prosecuted for 1mph over the limit 35mph in a 30mph is below the speed at which you should be prosecuted according to ACPO guidelines. The prosecuted limit is normally Speed limit plus 10% plus 3mph which means normally cases are only dealt with when the speed is 36mph and above. You might make this clear to them when you respond and they may drop the charges altogether." (Sept. 2010) Source: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/8...h-in-a-30-limit

Please don't pin your hopes on such optimistic advice, no-one will be dropping anything based upon what you have supplied.

Equally, whilst you place some stock on the ACPO Guidelines, are you aware they were withdrawn some years ago and replaced last December by a much reduced version?

35 is still the usual point where further action is taken but anything over 30 is game. There's no out with the guidelines you mention.

Honest John and the other paper have it wrong, 35 is not the fastest you can go without action being taken, it is the lowest speed at which action IS taken. As it has been in your case.

Just to be clear enforcement STARTS at +10%+2mph, so your reading of 35 (which is rounded down) means you were doing between 35 and 36 and therefore complying with the ACPO guidelines action is being taken.....your point was?

As for the name, the data is usually taken direct from DVLA records from the V5 registration dociment, suggest your Dad checks his is correct.

Action is also sometimes taken at speeds less than 35, as a recent post or two have demonstrated. A course offer is the most likely outcome, as others have said.

The only thing to make clear is the name of the driver .... anything else is asking for trouble

When the OP gets his own NIP, I would advise the Op to write to the ticket office and ask for "any photos that may help identify the driver and location at the time". Some speed cameras have been shown to be faulty and a quick check of the photo can confirm all is correct. Note there is a 28 day limit to respond to the request to name the driver (for OP and OP's father). So requests for photos must be made promptly after the OP receives their own NIP. Such requests DO NOT stop the 28 day period to respond to the NIP. When returning a s.172 form naming the driver it is good practice to sign it, keep a copy and get a certificate of posting from teh post office.

At the speed quoted it would be normal for the ticket tubbies to offer a Speed Awareness Scam. That does not involve any court appearance or points but does involve a half day attendance and a fee not too different from the potential £60 fine. If no course is offered or accepted then it would be usual to get a fixed penalty offer (£60 and 3 points) instead.

Thanks for all the posts so far guys, much appreciated.



Does the fact that the "(Camera)" was more than likely a SCP van, as opposed to a fixed camera, have any relevance to the request for information?

None at all.

hi all, i had a nip a few years ago,over 50 in a 40 ( june 08 ) i sent the details of owner and driver then fought it by this method, first i sent a letter along these lines

The driver writes a letter to the authority requesting evidence concerning the
alleged offence, e.g. copy photograph, certificate of compliance for the camera (if
appropriate) and a copy of the Police Officer's statement - as required for lawful
and necessary corroboration - if a mobile camera is involved. The driver may then
receive a letter stating that the request is denied - stating words to the effect that
photographic evidence can only be seen when a decision is made to prosecute
and summons the driver to appear before a Court. This letter should also detail a
denial for the other items of evidence, but often fails to mention them.

they refused to send any copys or evidence so i then sent this letter

Dear Sirs,
I acknowledge receipt of your letter-dated……….in, which you allege that I have
committed a speeding offence. That letter does not provide, or offer to provide,
any evidence that I have indeed committed such an offence.
I regard your allegation with the utmost concern as I am being asked to make a
very important decision, which could very seriously affect my future quality of life.
I shall be grateful therefore if you will advise me where, in law, does it state or
allow for evidence against a suspect to be deliberately withheld following, or
during, the process of an official demand for the payment of money (in this case a
£60.00 fixed penalty (or) £95.00 for a 'Speed Awareness Course'.
Further, whereby failure to pay that money on demand will expose the person
suspected of that offence to a possible fine of up to £1000.00 (plus costs) at a
Magistrates' Court, an amount that is in excess of 16 times (or 11 times)
(respectively) the amount of money previously demanded.
This, in my view, could potentially be a criminal offence in itself, the offence of
demanding money with menaces. It is also arguably a breach of my human rights
in that I am being subjected to unreasonable and possibly unlawful pressure by
being placed into a 'pay us now and save yourself harassment later' position.
I am entitled, in law, to all and any evidence that I have committed the offence
complained of before I pay any money to you - not just at Court, but as soon as
you issue me with a fixed penalty (or offer me a speed awareness course).
I look forward to your response.
Yours faithfully

edit for your own circumstances.....then got a letter basicly saying

we are complying with the regulations so pay up within seven days or a
court case will be prepared

i ignored the letter and never heard anything else ( sept 08 )
if this post is not suitable please let me know and i will remove it

That letter is total nonsense...ignoring the S172 request is simply not an option these days.

It is not suitable, but it did make me laugh.

is the s172 letter the one asking for owner and driver details

The letter does not recommend ignoring the s172, but it is an easy way to court for the speeding.

Yes.

May I suggest that the letter is removed to the flame pit, where people can explain why it is a bad idea without sidetracking this thread.

i used that method and its been nearly 4 years and nothing, i dont know if they have changed the way they do things since then but it is worth a try.

I don't often shout but.......

IT IS NOT WORTH A TRY

Yes.

As well as containing numerous howlers, the letter is very obviously a template copied from a website which I'm sure the ticket office will have seen many, many times before. I doubt that it will have had them quaking in their boots; more likely your case just fell through the cracks, which was relatively common in days gone by, and not unknown today - though the systems have become more efficient, which makes hoping that a NIP will go away a poor bet.

Assuming the s172 requirement is complied with, the main effect of sending that letter would be that the offer of a course and/or fixed penalty would not be forthcoming, and the OP would likely find himself in court facing a more severe penalty.

*To name but one, "I shall be grateful therefore if you will advise me where, in law, does it state or allow for evidence against a suspect to be deliberately withheld following". Erm, generally people are allowed to do what they like unless a legal prohibition or obligation applies, so in the absence of any law, withholding the evidence would be quite legal. Asking them to state the law which allows it is therefore rather silly. The correct question is, what law do you think would require them to disclose it?

i take it, i should remove my post then

Just to explain why it is a nonsense.

A s172 request is not an allegation to which you are making a plea. It is effectively stating that a possible offence has been committed using a vehicle which you may have been driving. You then tell the Police if you were driving or not. At that point they give you the option of how you want the matter resolved. If you know you committed the offence you have the option of accepting that fact and getting a fixed penalty. If you believe or are sure you didn't commit the offence you state you are not guilty. At that point you will receive the evidence and the matter goes to court (which at one time was the only option). If having seen the evidence you accept you committed the offence an early guilty plea will attract a reduced penalty but not one as low as the FP. If you go to a full trial because you still believe you are innocent you will either be aquitted or if convicted will face a penalty which has no discount.

To echo others, do not send that letter, although if you do I suspect a copy willl be posted in the office on the wall to amuse the staff.

Hi all.
Posted a brief letter today asking for information to help ID the driver. Will see what happens.

Recieved the following back;


and


and now have a NIP in my name.

Shall I just go ahead and fill that in and hope for a SAC offer?

Seems to someting missing from your post, were you trying to post images?

In the interests of speed:

Image 1

Image 2

@OP: There seems to be a hole or two in the tale here. A month ago you were filling out the form for your dad (dubious thing to do but let's not even go there) and also asking for photos. Now you've got an S172 requirement of your own, and this is the letter they also sent to your dad? There's technically only one NIP anyway, the one your dad got.

For all it matters, the bit they underlined is wrong - you don't have to use their form if you don't want to, though it makes little difference not to if you're naming yourself and it's probably only wise not to if you know what you're doing.






Oh, and that copyright bit is pretty much balls too.

My dad received his S172 and being unsure who was driving asked for assistance and received the letter above. This lead to him identifying me and I then received my own S172 which requires action.

First thing is to fill the form in and send it off. There is no advantage to delaying it if you are hoping for an SAC.

Just make sure that you do not provide anything more or less than what they request - it is surprising the number of people who feel the need to qualify the ID'ing of the driver and find themselves on the wrong end of a FTF charge.