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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
madchemist
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2012
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 17 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Bournemouth Wimbourne Road Southbound
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I didn't know anything about the offence since I have not been to Bournemouth since last year sent the letter from this site by recorded delivery saying didn't know who was driving asking for photographic evidence to see if it was my vehicle and giving a list of people who use my car did nothing on NIP sent it back to them blank received a letter back saying it is my responsibility to name the driver or will be taken to court for not providing information of driver please reply in 7 days I received this letter 8 days after the date on the letter so I phoned to say I didn't know who was driving and the lady said that I need to write a letter naming myself if I do not want to be convicted I have today found out that my uncle took my niece to bournemouth that day for university interview but my problem is that he has since passed away suddenly on the 16th of march so can't now provide his name as I will be treated like I am trying to get out of it

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes
- Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 02 May 2012 20:19:07 +0000
Gan
The only thing you can do is to name your uncle.

Yes, they will be suspicious about it but your niece can act as the witness and produce any letters etc confirming the appointment
Logician
It is very difficult to understand what you are saying, since you have used neither sentences nor punctuation. Please try again, first of all providing a timeline of what you have received and what you replied.

You would not have got advice from this site to ask for photographic evidence in those terms, since that would likely result in a refusal. You have a defence to the s172 charge if you can show that you could not provide the name of the driver after trying to ascertain it with reasonable diligence. It seems unlikely that would be successful in your case since the name of the driver has now emerged. You are correct that providing the name of someone now deceased would be regarded with suspicion, but if it can be proved to be the case, that should allay the suspicion.
madchemist
Sorry for the confusion and for my punctuation. I sent the form letter from this site saying I did not know who was driving because at the time I did not. The form asked for photographic evidence to identify the driver and to verify that the vehicle was my own and not a victim of cloned plates etc... This letter also included names of 4 people who regularly use the car. Sorry for any confusion caused.
mrh3369
If you know who was driving then name them deceased or otherwise, job done.
Logician
And the time line?
madchemist
The letter was received on the 30th of April asking again for the drivers name, but was dated the 20th and said I have 7 days to reply so that is when I phoned them and said that I didn't still know who was driving. The lady on the phone said that if I don't know then I must name myself in writing this week, and it was today I mentioned it at my auntie's house that she said my uncle was probably the driver.
madchemist
I am so sorry I thought the original response letter I sent was from this site but wasn't it was from www.roadsupervisors.net and this is the sample:

[To the Chief Crown Prosecutor
CPS Area Office]


201 Middle Avenue
Sometown
Anyshire.


[Today's Date]


Your Reference. xxxxxx


Dear Sir


Re:- Request for Information.



I am in receipt of your Summons [FPN: Fixed Penalty Notice... or NIP: Notice of Intended Prosecution] regarding an alleged Speeding Offence committed on [date] by a vehicle [model... displaying the registration number XXXXXX.]


Although this is the number plate of my vehicle, I have absolutely no recollection of being in that vicinity on that day. In addition, this vehicle is also regularly driven be a number of close friends, family members, and/or work colleagues: [provide a list if possible] none of which remember being in the area at the time. We have also checked credit card records to see if anyone bought anything in that area on the day in question. Unfortunately we have been unable to identify the driver.


I am very anxious to determine the true facts in this case and offer you my full cooperation in establishing whether...


This was genuinely my vehicle... [and not a stolen vehicle displaying false number plates.]

If it was my vehicle... the identity of the driver.



In accordance with the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996, I am therefore writing to request that copies of both photographs taken by your camera recording the alleged offence should be sent to me so that we can positively establish... the identity of the vehicle... and the identity of the driver. In the meantime... the Form is being returned unsigned as...


None of the available options applies in this case.

I am therefore, not Legally obliged to sign the document.



If we are unable to establish a positive identification of both the vehicle and the driver, I assume that the Summons [FPN: or NIP] will be withdrawn due to a lack of evidence. Additionally... in support of any subsequent defence, I shall also require...


a copy of the Calibration Certificate and maintenance records for the equipment.

a copy of any other evidence that you intend to rely on in Court.



In accordance with the Act cited above, I will require this evidence not less than seven days prior to any hearing date.



Thank you for your assistance in this matter.



Your faithfully,



I am so sorry for the mistake !
jimster
Probably?
Ask your niece, she should remember going for an interview.

Was your uncle named on your insurance?
Logician
If you have been given this week to name the driver and you honestly believe your uncle was the driver, then you should name him. A notice will then be sent to him, which your aunt will have to reply to stating he is now deceased. If the police decide to investigate further, then that is up to them, but presumably your aunt and neice will be able to confirm the journey and that he was driving. Stick to the truth, it is people who do not who trip up over their own lies and get into trouble.
jimster
Your were lucky to get a second chance to name the driver after sending that letter

martinbiz
You must consider that naming a driver who has since died (however unkind it may seem) is likely be treated with deep suspicion, the police have seen some amazing stories concocted over the years so nothing will surprise them and they are likely to look at such things as how he would have access to the vehicle, why you would not know he was using it, did he live close to the cars location, insurance issues etc and so it goes on. I have to say it does not sound very credible that the first you knew of the car being used for a fairly important reason was when your aunty mentioned it some 2 months later and it had not even come out in casual conversation previous to this. Why would you not notice the car had gone missing at the time?
madchemist
He was insured on his own car and my insurance states insured on another vehicle with owners permission is insured . And I was out in another vehicle at the time but my keys are always here so anyone who needs it can use the car. Until now that is !!! I would quite happily take the ticket myself if I was driving so I wouldn't make anything up as I don't have the ability to lie to anyones face ! Would much rather just pay the fine than go to court!
martinbiz
QUOTE (madchemist @ Wed, 2 May 2012 - 23:28) *
He was insured on his own car and my insurance states insured on another vehicle with owners permission is insured



That does not mean he was insured on your car though, your insurance may allow you to drive other cars, his may not.
madchemist
I will ask to see his policy and find out !
martinbiz
QUOTE (madchemist @ Wed, 2 May 2012 - 23:39) *
I will ask to see his policy and find out !


So he regularly uses your car but you have never checked to see if he's insured to do so!

How did he have access to your car keys if you were out at the time?
Gan
Naming someone who you know was not the driver is not only an S172 but a PCoJ offence.

The advice from the police to name yourself if you don't know is rather alarming.

It confirms what some of us suspect that their priority is a nice tidy conveyor belt of COFP and courses to make the numbers look good and the accuracy of the naming isn't that important.

It is better to kill one hundred innocents than to let one guilty person go free (Dolores Ibarruri)
jimster
I wonder if the lady he spoke to actually said he must name the driver?
Logician
The insurance position is irrelevant at this stage, the important thing is to tell the truth about who was driving.
Aretnap
If he had his own car why would he have felt the need to take your to Bournemouth without telling you?

You've rather painted yourself into a corner. If you're sure he was driving then all you can really do is name him and hope the police will accept the late nomination. At least you'll be able to produce your aunt and cousin as witnessed to confirm they you're telling the truth. If the police don't accept it then I can see you having difficulty defending a s172 charge given that you didn't name the driver in the required timeframe, used a well known "get off speeding tickets" template letter (no better way of destroying your credibility) and then proved that you could have named the driver in time had you tried harder earlier.
sgtdixie
I'm afraid that you have caused yourself some real problems here. Unless you get your uncles name back within the time limit you will be summonsed for failing to name the driver so who actually was driving will be irrelevant.

Because you sent out the letter above the SCP will not believe your dead uncle was driving. You have effectively gone through an A to Z of ways to try and get off this offence so expect them to investigate this fully. If your aunt and cousin give statements corroborating your account and provided the SCP don't have photographic or CCTV evidence to contradict it (don't forget every ANPR camera takes a photograph of the front of your car and they are all over the country) you will be OK.

If however they have evidence to show it was you they may pursue a PCOJ which if convicted means prison. If your aunt/cousin were to lie it would be a conspiracy to PCOJ which is even worse.
AFCNEAL
If I was you I'd get a full compliant statement from your Niece to the effect that she was driven from A to B by driver C between times X, Y & Z on the particular date. At the moment you only have the Aunt's 3rd party 'testimony' that your Uncle was driving - given his recent death her recollection may not be clear.

DO NOT claim it was the Uncle if it was not. The consequences of PCoJ aren't attractive!

Stop using the phone to communicate with the Police/Scammers - use letters, keep copies and get proof of posting!
desktop_demon
As has been said, the OP should determine who was driving at the time. If that was his uncle then that is the name to give. Yes - it will cause a storm down at the ticket tubbies office but so be it. The truth sometimes hurts. However if the uncle was not definitely driving then the OP might like to consider his options. He could name his uncle or any other reasonable suspect "recklessly". Or he could "recklessly" name himself. If no one is named in the time allowed then the OP opens himself up to a s.172 charge. That is far more serious and has worse consequences than a simple speeding charge. That doesn't mean the OP will automatically be convicted of "failure to furnish" (there are some possible defences) but it "ups the stakes" considerably. So, the OP is advised to proceed quickly and cautiously and return the form naming the driver appropriately.

And please, don't associate the useless template letters from other "legal advice" sites with PePiPoo. We do have some pride in our work and wouldn't ever suggest using such a dubious form of words to site members or guests.

Good luck
Gan
That was a dreadful letter
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