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john_d12
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2012
Date of the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 21 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A82(T) public road near Blackmount, Rannoch Moor, Glencoe, Highland Region, Scotland
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - works company vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 9
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Hi,

I was caught by a camera van speeding on Rannoch Moor A82, this is a company vehicle that I was driving at the time. I was travelling at 62mph in 60mph zone, I was unaware due to the class of vehicle I was driving the limit is 50mph. The Vehicle is a Mercedes Sprinter 311 mwb.

I work as a delivery driver and so therefore loosing my licence would mean loosing my job. I currently have 9 points (which are all work related) on my licence so would a further 3 points mean an automatic ban? My first 3 points are due to expire on the 27/10/12

I recieved the NIP last Thursday 12th April and at present I have not signed or sent off.

I would be greatful of any help
Please advise.

Thanks


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:31:07 +0000
jobo
any ban wouldn't be automatic, you would have the opertinity to present a harship( to others) argument to avoid it

can you clarify when the elearlist of you endorsements was committed ie date of offence ?
do you live in scotland ?
jimster
Consider going unsigned?
john_d12
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
any ban wouldn't be automatic, you would have the opertinity to present a harship( to others) argument to avoid it

can you clarify when the elearlist of you endorsements was committed ie date of offence ?
do you live in scotland ?


Hi there,

How long could I expect this to take from now to court action?

My earliest offence was commited on 27/10/2009

Yes I live in Scotland

QUOTE (jimster @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
Consider going unsigned?


I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?
jobo
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
any ban wouldn't be automatic, you would have the opertinity to present a harship( to others) argument to avoid it

can you clarify when the elearlist of you endorsements was committed ie date of offence ?
do you live in scotland ?


Hi there,

How long could I expect this to take from now to court action?

My earliest offence was commited on 27/10/2009

Yes I live in Scotland

QUOTE (jimster @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
Consider going unsigned?


I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?

6 months is a fair guess, 4 to 8 months at the outsides

there is an option of returning the form undsigned and then being out if the police cpme looking for you,as they might a few times, this can be come wearing as you would need to keep it up fo 6 months from offence, but if they do catch up with you, you are no worse off than you are now

the van hasnt got rear windows and seats i take it
jimster
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?


Ignore this solicitor
henrik777
QUOTE (jimster @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:28) *
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?


Ignore this solicitor


Solicitor is an idiot. Do not sign the form. Fill it in send it back to arrive just before 28 days are up. Get proof of posting. Avoid police for next few months.
Jlc
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
How long could I expect this to take from now to court action?

My earliest offence was commited on 27/10/2009

Dates of offence count, not conviction. I'm afraid you can't 'stretch' this one past 27/10 to drop points off.
john_d12
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
any ban wouldn't be automatic, you would have the opertinity to present a harship( to others) argument to avoid it

can you clarify when the elearlist of you endorsements was committed ie date of offence ?
do you live in scotland ?


Hi there,

How long could I expect this to take from now to court action?

My earliest offence was commited on 27/10/2009

Yes I live in Scotland

QUOTE (jimster @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:46) *
Consider going unsigned?


I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?

6 months is a fair guess, 4 to 8 months at the outsides

there is an option of returning the form undsigned and then being out if the police cpme looking for you,as they might a few times, this can be come wearing as you would need to keep it up fo 6 months from offence, but if they do catch up with you, you are no worse off than you are now

the van hasnt got rear windows and seats i take it


It sounds like a very big risk to take trying to avoid contact with them chapping on my door. I also wonder by not signing the NIP would there be any consequences for the company that i work for?

No no rear windows or seats!
martinbiz
No consequences for your co, they have fulfilled their obligation by naming a driver, what happens from here onwards is between you and the powers that be.
Logician
Would the police be likely to call at his place of work since they will know it? It is clearly more difficult to persuade your employers to say you are out when they come knocking than it would be family members.
Transit man
"I was travelling at 62mph in 60mph zone, I was unaware due to the class of vehicle I was driving the limit is 50mph."

"I work as a delivery driver"


Off topic & too late for the OP, but is it not about time employers & hire companies were forced to educate their drivers/renters of the lower limits on vans?
andy_foster
There is case law (Scottish) which says that there is only one [lawfull] s. 172 requirement on any individual in respect of any substantive alleged motoring offence. If someone 'goes' unsigned, they either commit an offence at the expiration of the 28 days or they don't. No amount of re-stating that requirement either by post or in person can alter that (ignoring issues regarding reasonable diligence which would not apply in an unsigned case).

The current policy (not sure if it applies to all areas within Scotland) seems to be to eventually issue a citation, and go through the motions of a prosecution only to inexplicably drop the case at the start of the trial - assuming that the accused does not blink first.
Aretnap
QUOTE (john_d12 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 22:14) *
I had brief chat with a solicitor today who advised signing the NIP and sending off and then ignoring the next letter that is sent out to me.... not sure what that next letter is called to be honest?

Depending on whether the system picks up on the fact that you have nine points at this stage, the next letter would either be a conditional offer of a fixed penalty or a citation. If it was a COFP you might as well ignore it, as you would not be able to accept it with 9 points on your licence. If it was a citation you would be foolish to ignore it.

If you sign and return the NIP then barring an administrative error (not impossible, but don't get your hopes up) you are very unlikely to avoid conviction and another 3 points, but you can ask the court not to disqualify you on the grounds that banning you would cause exceptional hardship - especially if the hardship related to other people. Do you have family who are financially dependant on you? Do you have elderly relatives who rely on you to drive them around? Are you a football manager?

If you can't mount a good exceptional hardship argument, and if a ban is likely to cost you your job whether or not the police turn up at your workplace, then you probably have little to lose by going down the unsigned route.
jimster
There was a recent thread here where the OP was also named by his boss and then went unsigned.....

The PF ignored the fact the s172 was unsigned and the OP received a citation for the speeding offence.

The OP folded and plead guilty to speeding offence (3 points and slighlty higher fine if I remember correctly)

Basically nothing to lose if you are on a totter?
martinbiz
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 17 Apr 2012 - 01:24) *
Would the police be likely to call at his place of work since they will know it? It is clearly more difficult to persuade your employers to say you are out when they come knocking than it would be family members.


Agreed, they might, but any further consequences that arise would be his not his employers, but I can see your point that they may get P****d off if they start knocking on their door every other week
Pete P
Did you have no training or other information from your employer regarding the speed limit for the type of vehicle you would be driving? When I started my current driving job I had to do 2 hours of theory learning about the type of vehicle I would be driving before I was allowed to get behind the wheel. I guess my employer cares about me having a licence though.
Logician
I have noticed a number of people on here saying they did not know the vehicle was subject to a speed limit. I would have thought a sticker on the dashboard at the very least would be worthwhile. Particularly with a vehicle having the performance of a Sprinter!
odom
I suppose, being devil's advocate, if you employ someone with a full driving licence there is an expectation that they know the Highway Code inside out. After all, the speed limits affect your licence but the "common courtesy" rules are arguably even more important to the company as you are representing them when out on the road.

I know lots of people don't know the different speed limits, but I don't think it's really the employer's fault.
Logician
QUOTE (odom @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 00:06) *
I suppose, being devil's advocate, if you employ someone with a full driving licence there is an expectation that they know the Highway Code inside out.


Oh come on, any employer who expected that would be an idiot. More realistically, I would expect people to mug up on the Code to pass their test and never look at it again! And people would read the sections applicable to them. I would not expect a car driver to have read, let alone know, any rules applicable to motor bikes. As an employer, I would not want my drivers being pulled over for traffic offences, or, as you say, driving badly and annoying others on the road, certainly in a sign-written van.
sgtdixie
QUOTE
Would the police be likely to call at his place of work since they will know it? It is clearly more difficult to persuade your employers to say you are out when they come knocking than it would be family members.


With the caveat that some cops are more diligent than others, yes.

I would visit the home address. If I got no joy when lights were on in evening or breakfast time I would go to the employer. They know the offence has been committed so there is no breach of confidence.
CuriousOrange
To reiterate what Andy has said, in Scotland there has been case law to say that if someone has already replied to an S172 requirement they can't be asked to do so on the same matter again.

So, if someone who replied unsigned is later accosted by the police and verbally issued an S172 requirement, they could reply no comment.

If that someone is later hauled to court for not replying to the verbal S172, their defence is that they'd already replied previously to the S172 requirement, the earlier, written one.

That then puts the PF back in the position of getting the court to find that an unsigned S172 reply doesn't comply with the requirement; the very position that they currently seem anxious to avoid.

Pete P
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 23:59) *
I have noticed a number of people on here saying they did not know the vehicle was subject to a speed limit. I would have thought a sticker on the dashboard at the very least would be worthwhile. Particularly with a vehicle having the performance of a Sprinter!


A good idea yes, unfortunately a legal requirement no.

QUOTE (odom @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 00:06) *
I suppose, being devil's advocate, if you employ someone with a full driving licence there is an expectation that they know the Highway Code inside out. After all, the speed limits affect your licence but the "common courtesy" rules are arguably even more important to the company as you are representing them when out on the road.

I know lots of people don't know the different speed limits, but I don't think it's really the employer's fault.


Personally I'd be inclined to say it was more the employers fault than the drivers. Yes they should know the highway code. But can you tell me off the top of your head the highway code braking distance from 60mph? Most folk couldn't. If any employer expects an employee to drive or operate some sort of vehicle which is subject to different speed limits or other operational rules than a standard car then they should definitely make the employee aware. It's the same case with that user on here who recently had a FPN for towing a trailer for work which his licence did not allow. He was 19 years old IIRC and should not reasonably be expected to know that he was limited to 750kg MAM until he passed an additional test, especially if he has no interest in towing before.
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