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dannischafer
I am wondering if anyone can help me.

My mum received a PCN through the post on Saturday, It is a motability vehicle and I am the named driver and was driving at the time of offence with my mum in the vehicle (who obviously has a blue badge)

The contravention code is 48 (stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited). the photo from pcn is: Click to view attachment

and makes it look like I had stopped on the zig zags from the angle it was taken but I was actually on double yellows. Here is a pictures of where I stopped: Click to view attachment

As far as i'm aware with a disabled badge I am allowed to stop (and park even) on double yellow lines (but I was there less than 1 minute and didnt even get out of the car)

Do you think I have a right to appeal this?

Thanks
Danielle

clark_kent
What are those zig zag markings next to the car in the photo? The car clearly looks like you are on the footway with the offside on the zig zags, you are on DYL but they also run through the zig zags.
Neil B
Can we have a better image, right way up.

Also, as is standard, ALL of the PCN please.
bama
we need to see the PCN - ALL of it minus personal details
leaves dates and times in.

did this happen in term time ?
many school zig zags only apply in 'school time' (it should be signposted)
qafqa
Close up of the zig zag relative to the car, is the enforcement zone only
on the roadway, not the pavement, as with white zig zag lines.
dannischafer
QUOTE (qafqa @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 10:33) *
Close up of the zig zag relative to the car, is the enforcement zone only
on the roadway, not the pavement, as with white zig zag lines.


Thanks for that. Not very god with things like this.

There are no markings on the pavement where I had stopped. the markings in the road are all yellow.
Hippocrates
Can we see the pole sign(s)? The words "during term time" must not be on the sign(s).

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3

Guidance on the use of the KEEP CLEAR
marking to diagram 1027.1 can be found in
Chapter 5, paras 22.19 to 22.25. Where this marking
is to be enforced by the making of an order, a sign to
diagram 642.2A is required. It may be used outside a
hospital or a fire, police or ambulance station, as well
as at school premises. The time period shown may be
varied as appropriate but the legend “during term
time” must not be used
. This legend is not prescribed
by the Regulations as not all drivers will be familiar
with the exact dates of each school term, particularly
as these can vary from one area to another. When
the “no stopping” order applies at all times, the time
period is omitted as shown on working drawing
P 642.2A (see para 1.9).
qafqa
Is this the correct location.

Link to Cedar Avenue on StreetView

If it is, here is the associated sign when the Googlecar visited

Link to nearby sign
dannischafer
Yes that is the correct location. I do not have any photos of the sign but i'm sure it was within the time limits on the sign (I think it says from 8.15-9.15am)
Hippocrates
If it is, there should be two signs, ideally placed so as to face oncoming traffic from both directions.
dannischafer
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Cedar+Aven...206.13,,0,-3.09

this is the sign.
qafqa
I now see two of the wheels are on the road so that pavement idea is going nowhere.

QUOTE (qafqa @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 10:33) *
Close up of the zig zag relative to the car, is the enforcement zone only
on the roadway, not the pavement, as with white zig zag lines.
Hippocrates
How far were you parked from the sign? Also, to enforce, there must be a Traffic Order.



The sign to diagram 642.2A is prescribed in
only one size. As drivers should not stop on a KEEP
CLEAR marking unless they already know they are
outside its operational hours, it is not essential for
it to face oncoming traffic, although this will make
it more conspicuous and leave no doubt about when
it applies. Where the road is two way, at least two
signs will be required if they are to face oncoming
traffic, one facing in each direction.
In many
situations the two signs can be mounted back to
back near the centre of the road marking. Where this
is not practicable (e.g. outside a fire station) the two
signs should be erected separately near each end of
the marking. Where more than one marking is used,
in accordance with Chapter 5, para 22.21, a sign to
diagram 642.2A will be required for each marking.
dannischafer
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:07) *
How far were you parked from the sign? Also, to enforce, there must be a Traffic Order.



The sign to diagram 642.2A is prescribed in
only one size. As drivers should not stop on a KEEP
CLEAR marking unless they already know they are
outside its operational hours, it is not essential for
it to face oncoming traffic, although this will make
it more conspicuous and leave no doubt about when
it applies. Where the road is two way, at least two
signs will be required if they are to face oncoming
traffic, one facing in each direction.
In many
situations the two signs can be mounted back to
back near the centre of the road marking. Where this
is not practicable (e.g. outside a fire station) the two
signs should be erected separately near each end of
the marking. Where more than one marking is used,
in accordance with Chapter 5, para 22.21, a sign to
diagram 642.2A will be required for each marking.


I'm not too sure to be honest, you can see the sign on that google maps link if you view right. on the lampost, and about the same distance again further along the other direction.

I am not sure what a traffic order is... icon_redface.gif

none of the signs do not face any direction, just out in to the road. not to the left or right.
qafqa
QUOTE
I am not sure what a traffic order is...


Here is a DfT FAQ about them:
Traffic Regulation Orders - Your Questions Answered
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/tma-...ns-answered.pdf
Hippocrates
Before advising any further, we must see the PCN - all of it, scrubbed of personal and VRM details, ok?

Re the pole sign:- my points have been detailed because it seems to me that you did not and would not have seen the sign? Unless you regularly park or know there is one there? By the way, it is not a "fine". And the owner is responsible, not the driver, for paying the penalty charge.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/gr...t/dg_186198.pdf
dannischafer
thanks for all your help so far. here are the pages of the PCN:

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

Hippocrates
The PCN does not state this, which it must by law:-


(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

(6) Where the recipient of the penalty charge notice makes a request under paragraph (5), the enforcement authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made
dannischafer
So what does that mean?

I am really sorry, but i'm trying very hard to understand the legislation rules etc... but most are going over my head!!
Hippocrates
It means that we can attack the PCN as it does not contain information which it must by law. I will underline again.

(4) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 10 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 2 of the Schedule to those Regulations, include the following information—

......................................................

In practical terms, I would immediately require the following information from the council:-

Dear Sirs,

Ref. PCN.............................

I require the following as soon as possible:-

1. A full copy of the Traffic Management Order for the location, together with all schedules and amendments and in pdf.

2. A copy of the CEO's notes.

3. The make, model of the camera used plus proof it was in the vehicle on the day in question.

4. The Department for Transport certification for the camera used.

5. All photographic evidence on which the council intends to rely.

6. The council's Code of Practice with regard to the enforcement by CCTV of parking infringements.

Yours faithfully
dannischafer
Ah right, Thank you for explaining that.

If i'm to challenge this then, I can email or go on to a website and give my reasons for appealing. Would you be able to help on What is the best way of going about this? what wording I should use etc...?


sorry, i've just seen your full reply on your other post.
Hippocrates
Do not appeal yet until we get the information required. Do that first, please.
dannischafer
I have requested the information from the council as you have suggested. I will post details as soon as I have a reply.

Thanks ever so much for your help

Danielle
Hippocrates
No worries. biggrin.gif
hcandersen
Can we focus on the contravention?

Why did you stop for what appears to be a very short time at this peculiar location?


HCA
dannischafer
Thanks for all your help so far. I received a reply earlier today as follows:

Dear **********,

Thank you for your email dated 16/04/2011.

Please find attached a copy of the relevant Traffic Management Order, a copy of the notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer at the time of contravention and a copy of the Certification of "Approved Devices".

The image on the Penalty Charge Notice is a still image taken from CCTV footage of your vehicle. To view the full footage online please go to:


http://havering.appeals-online.co.uk/formal.aspx and quote web code number ********. If you are unable to view this online please visit The Public Advice and Service Centre, located in the Liberty shopping centre Romford, between 9am and 4pm Monday to Friday (all this information can be found on the Penalty Charge Notice).

Please visit our website for the Code of practice for CCTV enforcement:

www.havering.gov.uk and follow these links:

Services/Transport and Streets/Parking/Street parking - enforcement and fines.

Under the heading 'Download' (located on the right) select 'Code of practice for CCTV enforcement'.

I would advise that the request you have made does not place the case on hold. If you wish to make representations or payment please refer to your Penalty Charge Notice in regards to how long you have to do this.

Kind Regards




Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Hippocrates
They have not provided the CEO's notes , nor the camera details save for the VCA certificate/letter nor proof that whatever camera was in whatever car on the day. How does the TMO shape up, bama?
bama
that Order is OLD !
lots of out of date (repealed) legislation references and dependencies


NTO restricts to just one statutory ground doesn't it ?
Hippocrates
I agree re the TMO, but the NtO does state box or boxes.

@OP:- no intention to confuse you as the PCN acts as an NtO because it was served by post. Which means you get one chance at making a representation and I am sure everyone will make it a glowing one for you!
dannischafer
i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller
Hippocrates
OK, but no proof of camera, make, model in the actual car? Not my forte advising how to upload, I am afraid. Someone will help soon.
hcandersen
And you stopped for what reason?

HCA
dannischafer
the details on the top of the CEO notes just state the date, camera operator, & vehicle reg. then just the date, time, my vehicle reg, make, colour (which they have as black and it isnt! its grey) and Camera (which under this it says MAST).

HCANDERSON....I stopped to let my mother and daughter out of the car. I was there literally 30 seconds not even that. My mum cant walk far distances so I stopped the nearest I could for her. I dont see this as a peculiar location at all and reason behind me stopping surely makes no difference?
qafqa
QUOTE
i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller


Please give the file a descriptive name and paste the link in your thread.
PDF Uploader, For TROs & PPOs (not images)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=53339&hl=
dannischafer
QUOTE (qafqa @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 22:04) *
QUOTE
i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller


Please give the file a descriptive name and paste the link in your thread.
PDF Uploader, For TROs & PPOs (not images)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=53339&hl=



Thank you so much for that!!

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/CEO%20notes.pdf

Hippocrates
Question? Mast camera, is it the same as certificated?
hcandersen
Challenge on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

!. The restriction which is purportedly in place is that vehicles must not stop.
2. This restriction would have been made under an order under section 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
3. That section provides a power to traffic authorities to impose a range of restrictions. IMO the applicable one here would be:
QUOTE
15Places in streets where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may, or may not, wait, either generally or at particular times.


4. Therefore, although the so-called contravention relates to "stopping", the authority does not have it within its power to make an order regarding stopping in these circumstances, but can make one regarding waiting.

5. If you were only stationary for 30 seconds or so, then various adjudicators have held that this is nominal and that waiting has not occurred. In any event, you could argue that waiting allows passengers to alight and so waiting as such did not occur. But if it did, your argument would therefore be that you were waiting for a nominal amount of time which is not considered by adjudicators to constitute a contravention.


But it does depend on whether you can show for how long you were stationary.

Wait for others to comment as I've not seen the issue of school markings argued in this way before and perhaps there's a loophole. If so, I'm confident others will find it.


HCA
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 22:39) *
Question? Mast camera, is it the same as certificated?


They have failed to name the camera used or supplied proof it was in the car. Also, the VCA letter/certificate is defective, too.
dannischafer
Thank you so much for all your help.

Can somebody please advise what my next step should be. Do I appeal this on these grounds that you have suggested? If so what should I state, is there a right way to word it etc..?

Need to get this sorted ASAP as nearing time limit.

Thanks
Danni
SchoolRunMum
HCAndersen has already given you most of it, just draft a letter based on the info you have been given here and post it here first. It's best in your own words, we don't use templates. But you can of course copy & paste chunks of advice like HCA's and then tweak the wording to make a readable letter format.
Hippocrates
Go through all the posts which have offered advice - which you understand and agree with - and post something up. If you do not understand anything, just say so and someone will explain. Do not be embarrassed.
dannischafer
Thanks, I am quite confused so could do with some pointers if possible.

I'm at useless at this kind of thing. I am to say I was not waiting, but stopped for a minimal time? Is this correct?

Are there any other points I should make?
bama
which points do you understand and which do you not.
dannischafer
From reading back over the posts I can only see HCandersons advice as a reason to appeal. Other things were mentioned but unsure what they mean or if they are a reason as well. Like Hippocrates mentioned about there not being things on the pcn as there should be by law, but does this make any difference to the appeal?

I am just to state that the rules apply to waiting, and I was Not waiting but had stopped for no more than 30 seconds, let my mother and daughter out of the car and then pulled away.

I really do appreciate all the help.
bama
so make a list and write what you do understand as your first draft and post it here for review.


its your case and if it gets to adjudication you will be sat there not us.
hence the 'teach a man to fish' method.
Hippocrates
Try this. Feel free to change/add in your own style.

Dear Sirs

Ref. PCN/NtO.................................

I appeal on the following grounds:-


1. Signage is inadequate:-

I rely upon the following from the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3.

9.16: Where the road is two way, at least two
signs will be required if they are to face oncoming
traffic, one facing in each direction. In many
situations the two signs can be mounted back to
back near the centre of the road marking. Where this
is not practicable (e.g. outside a fire station) the two
signs should be erected separately near each end of
the marking. Where more than one marking is used,
in accordance with Chapter 5, para 22.21, a sign to
diagram 642.2A will be required for each marking.


2. The PCN/NtO is defective.

The PCN does not state this, which it must by law:-


(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

(6) Where the recipient of the penalty charge notice makes a request under paragraph (5), the enforcement authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.

3. The council has failed to provide me with camera details as requested and the evidential link is not established.

The name, make, model of the camera used has not been supplied or proof that it was the same one used in the car at the time of the alleged contravention. The VCA certificate is further defective as it does not correctly name one of the cameras stated or the actual maker.

4. The contravention did not occur.

I stopped for a matter of thirty seconds for the purpose of letting my daughter and mother out of the car. The latter cannot walk far distances and this is why I stopped where I did. Therefore, the period of time is of minimal importance (de minimis) and there are numerous PATAS decisions which concur with my view.

Therefore, in view of the above, I require you to cancel the PCN/NtO with immediate effect.

Yours faithfully
dannischafer
Thank you soooo much!!
Hippocrates
Edited.
dannischafer
Hi me again!!

My mum has had a rejection of appeal letter through, basically disregarding all appeal grounds.

Im very annoyed as the letter was dated 15th June, but my mum had been on holiday from 19th June until 8th July so was only aware of this on her return. the fine is now £110 instead of the original £55.00 as you only have 21 days from date of letter to pay.

I have spoken to them, and basically said its not their fault she was on holiday and nothing can be done. she has said we can still make a formal appeal but they would need to receive the formal response by 12th July (yes, only 2 days time!!). if not the charge will then go up to £165.

grrrrr. so annoyed.

is it worth even appealing further? I will have to pay the £110 now or still £110 if it gets rejected again.

Thanks, and sorry for coming on again. was kind of hoping this was all going to be over!

bama
post up the rejection

and the exact text that was sent to the council
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