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Glitch
I am a regular visitor to Westfield Stratford Shopping complex. It is also the site for the 2012 Olympics.

Security is somewhat above a normal shopping centre and will no doubt tighten a lot more before July.

On driving into the site - just to go shopping or drop my son off for his part time job there is a chance to be selected for a vehicle check.
All they have done to date is look in the boot. It takes seconds. Staff look as though they must be on minimum wage.
I had to point out that Honda CR-V's have a big well under the boot floor. Big enough to hide something significant.

Anyway, yesterday as I got out of the car they helped themselves to a swab of the steering wheel and gearstick. No asking permission or explanation.
When asked the guy said they were checking for "dangerous substances". I asked if my DNA was going to be destroyed and his only retort was that it would have his on it too.
They let me drive off before there was any analysis. I was in a hurry to pick up my son otherwise I would have been more challenging about it.

Any ideas what they are allowed to take and keep and under what laws?
Transit man
Canary Wharf also do the swab test, one assumes that it is for explosive residue. I have also been stopped there & had a sniffer dog let loose in the back. Interestingly, I am often stopped by "professional security operatives" who ask to look in the back of the van, when it's opened to reveal that it is jam packed full & you cannot see beyond whatever is at the very rear, they just say OK & let me on my way.

Could be a tonne of C4 in front for all they know.
Glitch
QUOTE (Transit man @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:01) *
Canary Wharf also do the swab test, one assumes that it is for explosive residue. I have also been stopped there & had a sniffer dog let loose in the back. Interestingly, I am often stopped by "professional security operatives" who ask to look in the back of the van, when it's opened to reveal that it is jam packed full & you cannot see beyond whatever is at the very rear, they just say OK & let me on my way.

Could be a tonne of C4 in front for all they know.



Reminds me of the guys checking the shopping at the exit in Costco's Checking the bill against what is in the trolley¬ biggrin.gif
jobo
interesting, they have no right to search anything with out your permission, though they would then have the right to refuse entry to you and clearly no rights at all on the way out re costco

havening got your permission to search can they swab ? well id say no unless they have express permission to do so, tresspass to goods maybe
axeman
QUOTE (Glitch @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:28) *
QUOTE (Transit man @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:01) *
Canary Wharf also do the swab test, one assumes that it is for explosive residue. I have also been stopped there & had a sniffer dog let loose in the back. Interestingly, I am often stopped by "professional security operatives" who ask to look in the back of the van, when it's opened to reveal that it is jam packed full & you cannot see beyond whatever is at the very rear, they just say OK & let me on my way.

Could be a tonne of C4 in front for all they know.



Reminds me of the guys checking the shopping at the exit in Costco's Checking the bill against what is in the trolley¬ biggrin.gif


They say its to ensure you have what you should, in the States they are more truthful, told me we write on the bill so you cant re-enter and get the same stuff then exit with the same bill.
Glitch
Anyone know if the Westfield Stratford site is private property, or patrolled by LBN?

I often wait at a "Bus Stop" bay - no buses stop there, not an official stop.

Only seen private security patrolling, often parke din same bay and never seen a CEO.

Keep expecting to get a ticket through CCTV but nothing yet.

captain swoop
QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:48) *
interesting, they have no right to search anything with out your permission, though they would then have the right to refuse entry to you and clearly no rights at all on the way out re costco

havening got your permission to search can they swab ? well id say no unless they have express permission to do so, tresspass to goods maybe


If you give permissin then a swab to search for explosive residue would be part of the search ?
Glitch
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 14:44) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:48) *
interesting, they have no right to search anything with out your permission, though they would then have the right to refuse entry to you and clearly no rights at all on the way out re costco

havening got your permission to search can they swab ? well id say no unless they have express permission to do so, tresspass to goods maybe


If you give permissin then a swab to search for explosive residue would be part of the search ?


It is not made clear what they are looking for and what they do with the swab or any information derived from it.
It could be used to detect drugs or check DNA for all I know. I have nothing to hide but they should explain what they are doing and what data they keep. They presumably did the check after I left so surely they kept reg no. in case they find something. Even at the airport they do the test in front of you and I am not aware that they keep any data after.
jobo
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 14:44) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:48) *
interesting, they have no right to search anything with out your permission, though they would then have the right to refuse entry to you and clearly no rights at all on the way out re costco

havening got your permission to search can they swab ? well id say no unless they have express permission to do so, tresspass to goods maybe


If you give permissin then a swab to search for explosive residue would be part of the search ?


i wouldnt say so, myself, if the police search me they cant stick a dna swab on as part of it, taking a sample of something in my bag isnt the same as searching my bag

searching and seizure are two completely different things and even if its just sweat its still belongs to you and their taking it with out permision from inside your propety
Transit man
The problem is not the rights & wrongs of them taking it, more the inconvenience that a refusal or demand of rights from them to take it will yield.

For example, if I played my face at Canary Wharf, I would probably be asked to pull over & be treated to a long wait whilst they did what they had/wanted to do & possibly then be refused entry, which, when you just want to get in, drop off the load & get out, is not the best action to take for the ease of my business. In 99% of cases where you are treated to such actions, the reality is that you want or need to go in there, so it's a short & curly moment.

Doesn't make it right, but it's the simple life for me, they are more than welcome to my DNA biggrin.gif
mike848
Six months ago I had reason to drive into this so-called Olympic area - just heading for Stratford British Rail station to pick up a friend. Afternoon weekday but entry ramp/road nearly empty.

Encountered a multiple lane security barrier, manned (and womanned) by about 10 "private security" personnel. Note I'm only on the way from the A406 N.Circular to a B.R. station!

Was made to stop.

Told to switch off engine and get out of the car.

Asked all sorts of questions, couched in pidgin English too -

why are you here?
who are you?
where do you live?
how long have you lived in the country? (this was particularly piquant, given that the questoner could barely speak the language)
where (are) you goin'?
why (are) you goin' there?
what's in your car? (incredible question. Mainly air, actually)
open the boot (no please, or do you mind)
what's this electrical equipment (portable battery booster)?
why have it in the boot when the battery is in the engine? (duuuh)?
what is this? (the brainy guy couldn't recognise the spare tyre/wheel, in the recess where it should be)
why so many books carried? (was going to drop off a lot to a charity shop) (Dangerous things, books!)
etc.

Not that it should matter, but I was driving a 5-7 year old executive car, MLP £45K, good condition, innocuous colour, nothing unusual. I belong to the majority racial group in the UK (at least, I think so). I'm male and in the 45-55 age group. Dressed neatly and conservatively., I'm an atheist and accordingly was not dressed up as a religious fruitcake.

My objection is not so much with all this OTT stuff - but that while this genius was interrogating me, and his colleagues chatting with each other in the booths/kiosks, about 10 other cars were waved through. With one exception, they were driven by people who looked as if they belonged to the ethnic group of my interrogator/persecutor. No sign (friendly smile, other token of recognition) they were personally known to this ace team or were regulars.

When I drove back out 15 minutes later, there were no checks at all. But when I dropped my friend off 3 hours later, got (almost) the same stop and search treatment (though to be fair, it was briefer - but enough to leave my friend pretty shaken up).

Post-NuLabour Britain in a nutshell...
Pinback
QUOTE (mike848 @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 18:59) *
Post-NuLabour Britain in a nutshell...


Absolutely. Welcome to Harriet Harmans Cultural Marxist PC Police Nanny state.(Its important to recognise this is a cultural marxist state and not a fascist state, huge political difference, same personal effect)
captain swoop
So what are you going to do about it apart from complain on an internet motoring law site?
Pinback
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 19:25) *
So what are you going to do about it apart from complain on an internet motoring law site?



Theres nothing you can do about it, unless the people en masse rise and revolt. Voting will not change anything, and individuals cannot fight the state.
baggins1234
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 19:25) *
So what are you going to do about it apart from complain on an internet motoring law site?


Touche!

Transit man
Re Mike848 experience, I had a similar episode last year when I had the misfortune to have a job onto the Olympic site, the obviously non British security guy asked to see my passport, which I knew was a requisite for ID when I took the job, I passed it to him & as it was not a British passport, he turned to his colleague & asked if it was acceptable, before he got a reply I was screaming racist at him & I need to see his superior when they let me in without further ado tongue.gif

Bear in mind I am a middle aged white man with a Bristolian accent, as opposed to his poor grasp of the English language.
roythebus
Do these minimum wage "security officials" REALLY know a) what they're supposed to be looking for and b)what they are doing, apart from upsetting the natives!

There's usually steering wheel swab taken from my car at Eurotunnel in Cheriton every time I go through. I appreciate the tunnel could pose a security risk, but with the number of times I use it (about 20 a year) you'd think my car would clock up on their ANPR as a regular.

I think if I were to be searched at a shopping centre I'd take my business elsewhere. Thank goodness for on-line shopping and local shops!
jimster
Personally I don't don't see what all the fuss is about closedeyes.gif

So ..... You are being made to feel that you are the threat to your own country by incomers who can barely speak the lingo!!

Just a small price to pay for a diverse multi cultural UK, that's what we all want .... isn't it?
mike848
The friend whom I picked up at Stratford B.R. very visibly/obviously (by features and dress) belongs, fwiw, to the most demonised of the UK's 20th century minority ethnic groups. My friend blanched too at the (milder) treatment meted out to us on my return through Stratford's Checkpoint Charlie.
jdh
QUOTE (mike848 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:25) *
...the most demonised of the UK's 20th century minority ethnic groups...
White, middle aged, working class single men?
captain swoop
QUOTE (roythebus @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 09:10) *
I appreciate the tunnel could pose a security risk, but with the number of times I use it (about 20 a year) you'd think my car would clock up on their ANPR as a regular.


So, establishing a presence to lull them into a sense of security before you do the bomb run?
sgtdixie
I would suggest it is not DNA swab. The precautions you have to take to prevent contamination and ensure the swab relates to an identifiable person are beyond private security. It also takes several weeks and a lot of money to do the DNA test. If they did it what would it show. Several weeks ago a person they have swabbed before went shopping.

I think it will logically be swab for explosives (not my area so not sure exactly what they can analyse). This is common at airports and once the swab is taken it takes a couple of minutes to get a result.

Personally I have no issue with being swabbed but if someone did it without asking they would be told where to go and I would shop elsewhere.

Given the very high terrorist risk the Olympics have I think it is fair to step up security as no-one wants an attack, do they?
Mike7777777
QUOTE (mike848 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:25) *
The friend whom I picked up at Stratford B.R. very visibly/obviously (by features and dress) belongs, fwiw, to the most demonised of the UK's 20th century minority ethnic groups. My friend blanched too at the (milder) treatment meted out to us on my return through Stratford's Checkpoint Charlie.

The Jews?

I've been through the steering wheel swab thing at Canary Wharf, I sometimes wonder if it would pick-up residue from November 5th. "They" have also checked the boot, the contents of which didn't seem to disturb them (cables, batteries etc)
mike848
QUOTE (Mike7777777 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 18:37) *
QUOTE (mike848 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:25) *
The friend whom I picked up at Stratford B.R. very visibly/obviously (by features and dress) belongs, fwiw, to the most demonised of the UK's 20th century minority ethnic groups

The Jews?

No - while the Jews were certainly demonised in the UK in centuries long past, in the 20th century they weren't harassed much in the UK, Moseley's fascists excepted. Their demonisation has recommenced, though, if Red Ken is a bellwether.
It was a Uni friend whom I hadn't met for decades and who went from being an atheist back then to a practising Muslim, dressed hijab-style (i.e. all covered, except for the front of the face) - quite a surprise for me!
Note the treatment I got at Checkpoint Charlie Stratford was worse when I was alone in the car; maybe on my return trip I was recognised, which is why they didn't go quite as far.

QUOTE (captain swoop @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 13:57) *
So, establishing a presence to lull them into a sense of security before you do the bomb run?

wink.gif
jobo
br is this a railway station or what
Roverboy
Believe me, as an ex private security officer I can tell you many security companies are not fussy who they take on as long as your "legal" and don't make a fuss.

99% of contract security work is now minimum wage, and done by "ethnic" workers, as the natives (me) won't do it anymore as the money (minimum wage) is an insult for the responsibility, cr@p hours, nights and 12 to 14 hour shifts. I could get more per hour, doing 9 to 5, and no nights/shifts or risk collecting trolleys at Morrisons.

I compare the security industry today to the London buses and Tube of the 50/60's when because British workers wouldn't work for the money and conditions they brought the Jamaicans into the country to do it.
mike848
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 18:21) *
Given the very high terrorist risk the Olympics have I think it is fair to step up security as no-one wants an attack, do they?

Not keeping on invading Muslim countries with little or no excuse, while at the same time encouraging uncontrolled immigration from non-integrated and no-wish-to-be-integrated individuals, is not a small part of the problem. Rearranging the deck chairs ain't going to help.
jimster
QUOTE (Roverboy @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 20:20) *
Believe me, as an ex private security officer I can tell you many security companies are not fussy who they take on as long as your "legal" and don't make a fuss.

99% of contract security work is now minimum wage, and done by "ethnic" workers, as the natives (me) won't do it anymore as the money (minimum wage) is an insult for the responsibility, cr@p hours, nights and 12 to 14 hour shifts. I could get more per hour, doing 9 to 5, and no nights/shifts or risk collecting trolleys at Morrisons.

I compare the security industry today to the London buses and Tube of the 50/60's when because British workers wouldn't work for the money and conditions they brought the Jamaicans into the country to do it.


That makes it sound like uncontrolled immigration from third world countries was encouraged to supply cheap labour and drive down wages / conditions for the rest of us?

Surely not?
sgtdixie
A couple of months ago I needed a plumber urgently. All the usual local ones wanted a fortune and would come next week. Friend put me on to a Polish guy. He was brilliant. Worked hard, worked well and asked for an honest fee.

Not all foreign workers are a negative for society.
jimster
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:15) *
A couple of months ago I needed a plumber urgently. All the usual local ones wanted a fortune and would come next week. Friend put me on to a Polish guy. He was brilliant. Worked hard, worked well and asked for an honest fee.

Not all foreign workers are a negative for society.


What did you need done urgently? .... what was the fortune quote, and what did the Pole do it for?

The local boys may have had overheads like tax, national insurance, staff wages etc. that's why they can't compete price-wise with cash in hand lads. Doesn't the "cowboy trap" program tell us not to trust builders etc. who can turn up at the drop of a hat?



Anyway .... plumbing is really easy for anybody with basic DIY skills rolleyes.gif
Glitch
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 18:21) *
I would suggest it is not DNA swab. The precautions you have to take to prevent contamination and ensure the swab relates to an identifiable person are beyond private security. It also takes several weeks and a lot of money to do the DNA test. If they did it what would it show. Several weeks ago a person they have swabbed before went shopping.

I think it will logically be swab for explosives (not my area so not sure exactly what they can analyse). This is common at airports and once the swab is taken it takes a couple of minutes to get a result.

Personally I have no issue with being swabbed but if someone did it without asking they would be told where to go and I would shop elsewhere.

Given the very high terrorist risk the Olympics have I think it is fair to step up security as no-one wants an attack, do they?


Only a mild inconvenience for me. What annoys me is the guy just leaning in the car and doing it without explanation or asking permission.


QUOTE (jdh @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (mike848 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 11:25) *
...the most demonised of the UK's 20th century minority ethnic groups...
White, middle aged, GINGER, working class single men?



QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 21:15) *
A couple of months ago I needed a plumber urgently. All the usual local ones wanted a fortune and would come next week. Friend put me on to a Polish guy. He was brilliant. Worked hard, worked well and asked for an honest fee.

Not all foreign workers are a negative for society


Can't disagree with that. The Polish in particular seem willing to work hard.

Annoying though that the builders at the Olympic site used a majority of foreign (cheap) workers when they should be ensuring a larger percentage go to the indigenous population. Newham insisted that a percentage of jobs went to locals at Westfield Stratford. However the standard was pretty low and John Lewis had to arrange classes to help locals get through the application and interviews.
Transit man
QUOTE (Glitch @ Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 23:47) *
Can't disagree with that. The Polish in particular seem willing to work hard.

I meet some of the most unhelpful people driving fork lift trucks, everything is too much trouble for them, including the most basic pleasantries. I often think that if I hated a job as much as they do, I would simply walk out.

But whenever you meet a Polish or other east European driver, they are always pleasant & will go out of their way to assist you, even if the language barrier is there, you will never get a "jobsworth" attitude from them. And as these are working for large companies, they are paying there dues to this country.

One example, once a week I deliver to a large newspaper & magazine distributor, if I arrive before 10 pm, a young (& not unattractive rolleyes.gif ) polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps unload, which in this case is by hand not fork lift. If I arrive after 10 pm when she has finished her shift, if lucky, I get a few grunts from the white, British workers who will watch me unload by myself, even though they are waiting for the magazines, if asked why they couldn't help if they are in a hurry "not my job mate" is the best reaction you will hope to get. After unloading, they insist that I find an elusive manager to sign the proof of delivery note as it's not their job to sign anything, not the Polish girl (did I say she is very attractive? biggrin.gif ) she just signs, smiles & wishes me a safe onward journey.
Glitch
QUOTE
polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps [me] unload, which in this case is by hand


Yeah I get your drift. Good looking Polish girl helping you unload by hand. wub.gif
jdh
QUOTE (Glitch @ Tue, 17 Apr 2012 - 23:59) *
QUOTE
polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps [me] unload, which in this case is by hand


Yeah I get your drift. Good looking Polish girl helping you unload by hand. wub.gif

That bit's understandable, it's the White British blokes watching him unload himself while they wait for their magazines that worry me ohmy.gif
Transit man
QUOTE (Glitch @ Tue, 17 Apr 2012 - 23:59) *
QUOTE
polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps [me] unload, which in this case is by hand

Yeah I get your drift. Good looking Polish girl helping you unload by hand. wub.gif

As a happily married man I take issue with that inuendo ohmy.gif , but did I say, she IS very attractive biggrin.gif
QUOTE (jdh @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 00:03) *
That bit's understandable, it's the White British blokes watching him unload himself while they wait for their magazines that worry me ohmy.gif

Whatever turns them on, but I reckon they must be closet bankers, as I am delivering the Economist magazine biggrin.gif BTW, did anyone read last weeks issue. I have been awaiting GBs take on it ohmy.gif

But whilst on the inferred subject of "magazines" it does absolutely amaze me the number of, shall we say "top rack magazines" that the distributors well, distribute, we are not talking a few hundred, but many pallets full, each pallet possibly carrying 10-15,000 copies, it amazes me who are buying them all & no, it's not me rolleyes.gif
sgtdixie
I believe porn is the most used part of the internet, but no-one ever looks at it. Strange that.
Transit man
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 21:31) *
I believe porn is the most used part of the internet, but no-one ever looks at it. Strange that.

Probably accidental viewing, my interest in ornithology often gets some very strange google hits whilst I try to establish the definitive difference between marsh & coal **** biggrin.gif

Edit:- Blimey, the censor on this board is now objecting to my favourite bird table visitors, so I'll encode it, I just love to watch the great t*ts on my bird table tongue.gif
albert2008
one tried parking in Skegness car park with a camper van,

sorry not allowed,
just stopping afternoon,
your not allowed in,
ok, can you get the queue of cars to reverse,
no, but you can go in the turn round,
sorry, you said not allowed in, are you saying I can go in and park,
no,
ok, can you get the queue of cars to reverse,


and made him reverse the queue out of the way then parked on road in "free all day" bay,
Neil B
QUOTE (Glitch @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 12:54) *
Anyone know if the Westfield Stratford site is private property, or patrolled by LBN?

I often wait at a "Bus Stop" bay - no buses stop there, not an official stop.

Only seen private security patrolling, often parke din same bay and never seen a CEO.

Keep expecting to get a ticket through CCTV but nothing yet.


Owned by Westfield themselves, as is the local shopping centre opposite. Nowt to do with LBN.

Haven't looked to see who the ppc is - I assume there is one?
Glitch
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 10:00) *
QUOTE (Glitch @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 12:54) *
Anyone know if the Westfield Stratford site is private property, or patrolled by LBN?

I often wait at a "Bus Stop" bay - no buses stop there, not an official stop.

Only seen private security patrolling, often parke din same bay and never seen a CEO.

Keep expecting to get a ticket through CCTV but nothing yet.


Owned by Westfield themselves, as is the local shopping centre opposite. Nowt to do with LBN.

Haven't looked to see who the ppc is - I assume there is one?


No sign of a PPC and no parking signs or warning signs anywhere on the site though lots of double yellows which I assume have no meaning whatsoever. However I am sure that any vehicle will be towed pretty quickly.

There is a sign I noticed yesterday that says summat about "no right of way" and "normal traffic regulations apply".



QUOTE (Transit man @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 16:07) *
QUOTE (Glitch @ Tue, 17 Apr 2012 - 23:59) *
QUOTE
polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps [me] unload, which in this case is by hand

Yeah I get your drift. Good looking Polish girl helping you unload by hand. wub.gif

As a happily married man I take issue with that inuendo ohmy.gif , but did I say, she IS very attractive biggrin.gif
QUOTE (jdh @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 00:03) *
That bit's understandable, it's the White British blokes watching him unload himself while they wait for their magazines that worry me ohmy.gif

Whatever turns them on, but I reckon they must be closet bankers, as I am delivering the Economist magazine biggrin.gif BTW, did anyone read last weeks issue. I have been awaiting GBs take on it ohmy.gif

But whilst on the inferred subject of "magazines" it does absolutely amaze me the number of, shall we say "top rack magazines" that the distributors well, distribute, we are not talking a few hundred, but many pallets full, each pallet possibly carrying 10-15,000 copies, it amazes me who are buying them all & no, it's not me rolleyes.gif



QUOTE
"After unloading, they insist that I find an elusive manager to sign the proof of delivery"


Seems a tad pedantic but not surprised he is elusive if he has to sign soggy tissues blush.gif
dom
QUOTE (Glitch @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 11:28) *
Reminds me of the guys checking the shopping at the exit in Costco's Checking the bill against what is in the trolley¬ biggrin.gif



I always used to think that until they pulled me up fro having the wrong amount of items in a very packed trolley.


They were correct - I had left one at the checkout!


Dom
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (Transit man @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 16:07) *
QUOTE (Glitch @ Tue, 17 Apr 2012 - 23:59) *
QUOTE
polish girl, greets me with a smile & helps [me] unload, which in this case is by hand

Yeah I get your drift. Good looking Polish girl helping you unload by hand. wub.gif

As a happily married man I take issue with that inuendo ohmy.gif , but did I say, she IS very attractive biggrin.gif
QUOTE (jdh @ Wed, 18 Apr 2012 - 00:03) *
That bit's understandable, it's the White British blokes watching him unload himself while they wait for their magazines that worry me ohmy.gif

Whatever turns them on, but I reckon they must be closet bankers, as I am delivering the Economist magazine biggrin.gif BTW, did anyone read last weeks issue. I have been awaiting GBs take on it ohmy.gif


My takes been quiet cos I've not read this topic lol. But I must have an opinion on everything, so here goes.

I would never read a paper, journal or otherwise where people right in with 'Dear Sir'. That is like reading the Telegraph, and I would never do that. Infact I would rather burn it. I think indipendance will be a disaster for Scotland and indeed the UK. However for that pile of junk to depict such a ridiculous cover of Scotland shows that they should be put out of business for sheer arseholishness.
Transit man
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Mon, 23 Apr 2012 - 12:29) *
I would never read a paper, journal or otherwise where people right in with 'Dear Sir'. That is like reading the Telegraph, and I would never do that. Infact I would rather burn it. I think indipendance will be a disaster for Scotland and indeed the UK. However for that pile of junk to depict such a ridiculous cover of Scotland shows that they should be put out of business for sheer arseholishness.

No way, the contract I have with them amounts to 25-30% of my turnover, you leave them to print what the hell they like biggrin.gif
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (Pinback @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (mike848 @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 18:59) *
Post-NuLabour Britain in a nutshell...


Absolutely. Welcome to Harriet Harmans Cultural Marxist PC Police Nanny state.(Its important to recognise this is a cultural marxist state and not a fascist state, huge political difference, same personal effect)

I agree that there is a difference between marxism and fascism but it depends on which model you choose to compare with the other. Were we, for example, to use a Moaist model of marxism as our yardstick then a necessary component of its creation is the toppling of capitalism by a popular, i.e. peoples, or proletarian uprising. There has been no such revolution in this country and there is unlikely ever to be. By the same token, were we to attempt to use a Hitlerian model to assess our current position then we would quickly see that the nationalism that sat at the core of that philosophy is totally lacking.

However, one of the fundamental principals of fascism is the role of corporations, indeed, fascism can be alternatively defined as corporatism and this more closely matches the system we currently "enjoy", I would contend, than any marxist-style system that necessarily excludes capitalism as a central tenet. Unless of course you subscribe to the idea that what we see is better described as syndicalism in which case, of course, there are greater number of examples of that amongst more socialist systems than broadly nationalist/fascist.

I think that one of the telling aspects of our so-called system (a system implies coherence and one wonders where that is?) is the way in which companies (and I distinguish them from corporations) are now no longer seen as providers of employment and generators of wealth alone but as actors for social change. Companies drive health programmes - look at Sainsburys food labelling, for example, or at the growth of academies in the education sector - overtly corporatist, or what? One might also argue that the way in which the Olympics are to be policed (by all members of the "wider policing family") is simply a means of introducing a baser level of policing to the broader population and thereby conditioning them to accept it.

Anyway, I'm done with politics. The colour no longer matters but the intention - velvet totalitarianism - is as plain as a pikestaff. Champagne chuggers of the world unite. wink.gif
sgtdixie
QUOTE
I think that one of the telling aspects of our so-called system (a system implies coherence and one wonders where that is?) is the way in which companies (and I distinguish them from corporations) are now no longer seen as providers of employment and generators of wealth alone but as actors for social change. Companies drive health programmes - look at Sainsburys food labelling, for example, or at the growth of academies in the education sector - overtly corporatist, or what?


Fast forward to the Victorian era.
jobo
thjere vs a story knocking about on one of the police sites of a reporter taking pictures of the 02 from public land and the security rushing out and effectively arresting him whilst the police were called, neither the police or indeed 02 could see anything wrong with this as there is an ''elevated risk'' so there seems no end of possibility of a private police force operating buring the olimpic

il post when i can find it

here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/1...ity-photography
Very quickly the reporter was challenged by O2 security guards, who made a series of demands with no basis in law. They ordered that the filming stop – "We've requested you to not do it because we don't like it" – and that they be shown any existing footage. Asked on what basis they could demand this, one replied: "It's under the terrorist law. We are an Olympic venue." Another added: "You have, for want of a better word, breached our security by videoing it [the O2]."

At one point they refused to allow the reporter to leave. One said: "It's gone too far for that

and comicaly
The incident at the O2 was eventually resolved after guards called police, who also asked to see the video footage, citing the Terrorism Act. The reporter was allowed to leave after neither he nor the police could properly operate the camera to replay the footage.
Ocelot
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Tue, 24 Apr 2012 - 13:26) *
QUOTE (Pinback @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (mike848 @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 18:59) *
Post-NuLabour Britain in a nutshell...


Absolutely. Welcome to Harriet Harmans Cultural Marxist PC Police Nanny state.(Its important to recognise this is a cultural marxist state and not a fascist state, huge political difference, same personal effect)

I agree that there is a difference between marxism and fascism but it depends on which model you choose to compare with the other. Were we, for example, to use a Moaist model of marxism as our yardstick then a necessary component of its creation is the toppling of capitalism by a popular, i.e. peoples, or proletarian uprising. There has been no such revolution in this country and there is unlikely ever to be. By the same token, were we to attempt to use a Hitlerian model to assess our current position then we would quickly see that the nationalism that sat at the core of that philosophy is totally lacking.

However, one of the fundamental principals of fascism is the role of corporations, indeed, fascism can be alternatively defined as corporatism and this more closely matches the system we currently "enjoy", I would contend, than any marxist-style system that necessarily excludes capitalism as a central tenet. Unless of course you subscribe to the idea that what we see is better described as syndicalism in which case, of course, there are greater number of examples of that amongst more socialist systems than broadly nationalist/fascist.

I think that one of the telling aspects of our so-called system (a system implies coherence and one wonders where that is?) is the way in which companies (and I distinguish them from corporations) are now no longer seen as providers of employment and generators of wealth alone but as actors for social change. Companies drive health programmes - look at Sainsburys food labelling, for example, or at the growth of academies in the education sector - overtly corporatist, or what? One might also argue that the way in which the Olympics are to be policed (by all members of the "wider policing family") is simply a means of introducing a baser level of policing to the broader population and thereby conditioning them to accept it.

Anyway, I'm done with politics. The colour no longer matters but the intention - velvet totalitarianism - is as plain as a pikestaff. Champagne chuggers of the world unite. wink.gif



Nope, didn't catch a word of that...but it sounds damn saucy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOSYiT2iG08
WageSlave
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Tue, 24 Apr 2012 - 12:26) *
However, one of the fundamental principals of fascism is the role of corporations, indeed, fascism can be alternatively defined as corporatism and this more closely matches the system we currently "enjoy", I would contend, than any marxist-style system that necessarily excludes capitalism as a central tenet. Unless of course you subscribe to the idea that what we see is better described as syndicalism in which case, of course, there are greater number of examples of that amongst more socialist systems than broadly nationalist/fascist.

I think that one of the telling aspects of our so-called system (a system implies coherence and one wonders where that is?) is the way in which companies (and I distinguish them from corporations) are now no longer seen as providers of employment and generators of wealth alone but as actors for social change. Companies drive health programmes - look at Sainsburys food labelling, for example, or at the growth of academies in the education sector - overtly corporatist, or what?


On the question of whether or not we are living in a corporatist state I was for a time mildly baffled at why I could not vote for Tesco or Sainsburys in a general election. The people behind these sterling organisations appear to do a cracking job of running them. It's hard to believe that they could not do a better job of running the country than either the current bunch of muppets or the last lot of muppets. Both of these giants of retail are forever looking to expand what they do from the mere selling of groceries. They now sell clothes, medecines, electrical goods, various kinds of insurance and banking services, the sexual services of the finest women plucked from every corner of the globe [OK I made that last one up. You can't yet visit a Tesco branded brothel.].

So, given their urge to provide us with everything, why have they not moved into politics?

Then, of course, the answer came to me: politics doesn't actually matter all that much. Not as it is practised in the UK anyway. If it did I would surely already be able to vote for Tesco.

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